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Liverpool Football Club Thread

glb

By glb
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Takizawa

Takizawa

Posted
Posted

Surely having to make last minute tackles and recovery play is a weakness?

Not really, you aren't always recovering from your own mistakes.

I agree with Ferdinand being incredible though, he was sooo fast when he was younger too.

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dogsout

dogsout

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The rashness comment I presume is based on him giving away a few pens and getting the odd red so there is, I suppose, a bit of base to the one but his last ditch tackling and recovery play is really fantastic so it's hard to call it a glaring weakness. The other one just isn't applicable at all.

I think he's perhaps just below Kompany in terms of being an all round defender, he's really, really excellent.

I certainly agree our CBs compliment each other but Koscielny is pretty complete as centrebacks go.

I disagree. I know you hate stats, carlito, so I'm probably about to really piss you off - sorry! He averaged 0.9 fouls per game in the league last season. That's even more than Skrtel and he seems to be constantly fouling every game. Contrast that with Mertesacker's 0.3 and I think it shows what I'm talking about a bit. Mertesacker is the one that covers while Koscielny steps out and presses once the line is exposed. This was truly evident in our league game at the Emirates when Koscielny was constantly sprinting out of his line to get to Suarez early, while Mertesacker just sat back and marshalled the line. Our front line barely got a sniff that day. But in the game at Anfield Rodgers moved Suarez wide and we managed to get behind you almost at will because the fullbacks were being overloaded and the CBs kept shuffling across to help them, leaving Mertesacker's weakness to the ball in behind seriously exposed.

Koscielny is what I would call a great 1v1 defender. I really disagree with him being called an 'all round' defender. He's not great in the air, I'd argue that he only has to make such terrific recovery tackles because he's conceded the space in the first place, and he does concede a lot of fouls. It's a glaring weakness in isolation - which was my point. It doesn't necessarily get exposed all that often because Mertesacker's strengths cover Koscienly's weaknesses very well, and vice versa.

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carlito

carlito

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Stats are indeed wank.

Fouls out of how many tackles? How many of those fouls prevented a dangerous situation? How many of them were attacking corners in the opponent's box?

Anyway, I am not up for a Whoscored chat, I just don't think, if you really watched the player, you'd feel he had that many glaring flaws that required covering.

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dogsout

dogsout

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Posted

Stats are indeed wank.

Fouls out of how many tackles? How many of those fouls prevented a dangerous situation? How many of them were attacking corners in the opponent's box?

None of that really matters for the purposes of the argument. I wasn't attempting to go into extreme detail. It was an admittedly simplistic use of stats to indicate a trend. The trend being one of them deals with threats head on, therefore meaning the other doesn't get exposed to as many 1v1 situations. One is a calm, slow and steady type defender, and the other is fast, furious and, at times, rash. The difference in their interception rates furthers this. They kind of remind me of the Alonso-Masch partnership we had going for a while.

Anyway, I am not up for a Whoscored chat, I just don't think, if you really watched the player, you'd feel he had that many glaring flaws that required covering.

I don't. I think he has two or three obvious weaknesses, that Mertesacker's strengths and style do well to cover up. What I'm saying is the shortcomings of his aggressive style of defending are diminished due to his partnership with Mertesacker. Same goes for him not needing to be an aerial powerhouse when he has a 6'6" guy playing next to him. I don't really get why you've got so caught up in defending his weaknesses. Do you think two Koscielnys would make a better partnership than Koscielny and Mertesacker? That's a lot closer to what I'm getting at than whether or not he is perfect and has no weaknesses.

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Chewylegs

Chewylegs

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I don't really get why you've got so caught up in defending his weaknesses.

Because inferring he has weaknesses to Arsenal fans is like insulting their mother!

The Fox always goes on about how amazing he is, so good Sakho played ahead of him in the world cup! ;-)

Joking aside, you are right, two Koscielny's wouldn't be better than the current partnership, same as having two Carraghers in defence or two Tony Adams. It's a team game and the personnel involved is their to complement each other.

That's why I'm looking forward to Lovren joining as he will be a perfect partner for Sakho (or if necessary Skirty).

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carlito

carlito

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We have loads of weaknesses, I am pretty well attuned to them.

Like I said I just think Koscielny is one of the very best defenders in the league and to talk about mitigating serious flaws in his game just seems a bit weird. Yes, he plays a different "role" to Mertesacker but that's not really a flaw.

Do you remember all those great French players that got picked ahead of Cantona Chewylegs?

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dogsout

dogsout

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I didn't say "serious" flaws. I said glaring; as in obvious. You know, like Mertesacker is really slow and Koscielny is rash.

Anyway, we've gone off on a tangent here. I'm just saying that we need a calm, organiser type to partner Sakho/Skrtel. I think Agger will be off and I'd hope Toure will go, too. Hopefully Ilori can take his place in the squad.

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Dude Ranch

Dude Ranch

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There was also that fairly rubbish Newcastle right back that somehow found himself in the French team, I wonder what has happened to him after the world cup? ;)

Oh look, one of those funny little Spurs fans crept in. Everyone, sshhh..

Hey little fella, how's it going? Fancy some cheese little mouse? Fancy some cheese? :wub:

cheese-dutchleerdammer.jpg

Aww, he's gone. Utterly charming. See you soon little mouse, see you soon!

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The Fox

The Fox

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Koscielny's aggressive style is pretty in vogue really. A lot of the top centre backs play that way these days. He does commit a fairly high amount of fouls as a consequence of that style, but his yellow/red card count was waaay down last season so I think it's something he's improved on.

People do get in behind him now and again because he presses so hard, but his speed of recovery is ridiculous so it's rarely something that gets punished. To say he has "crap positioning" is a fundamental misunderstanding of how he (and a lot of modern CBs) play IMO. I'm surprised dogsout thinks he's poor in the air; I think he's perfectly decent in that area, especially as he's not the biggest. I'd agree with carlito that Kompany at his best is the only superior all round CB in the league, but he hasn't really been in great form for two years now (not that anyone in the media seems to have noticed, apart from Michael Cox).

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dogsout

dogsout

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I didn't say he's poor in the air. I think he's fairly average in that regard. All I was trying to say is we don't need to go out and buy a big name, amazing CB in order to sort the defence. It's not as simple as just buying two good defenders and sticking them next to each other in the hope that they'll just perform to the best of their ability. You need a pair that compliment one another's skill-set.

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The Fox

The Fox

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I didn't say he's poor in the air. I think he's fairly average in that regard. All I was trying to say is we don't need to go out and buy a big name, amazing CB in order to sort the defence. It's not as simple as just buying two good defenders and sticking them next to each other in the hope that they'll just perform to the best of their ability. You need a pair that compliment one another's skill-set.

Oh yeah absolutely. Evaluating CBs individually isn't pointless, but yeah it is really all about complimentary pairs. Obviously a very extreme example is David Luiz: really good alongside Thiago Silva; absolute fucking clown without him.

I'm surprised by the lengths you're going to to sign Lovren because surely you want someone who specialises on the right side.

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Rev

Rev

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Yeah. Sakho is clearly going to come good, so someone calm to stand the other side of him seems to be what is needed. But it's much harder to use Southampton vouchers anywhere else, so y'know. Take what you can get.

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Stig

Stig

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I do love me some rumours. Todays are that we are going after Reus and are looking to high jack Uniteds bid for Vidal.

Even though rumours are usually bullshit, those are the kind of big money signings to give the team and fans a big boost. Fantastic that we'be done a fair bit of business already and I'm happy with the signings but non are exactly massive stars. Not that all signings need to be massive stars but to just land 1 or 2 would be great (especially if it means United lose out on the player)

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