Liverpool Football Club Thread

[bradigor]

I really hope we have some sort of agreement in place for Bellingham. As if he carries on how he is a City, Madrid or PSG will just come in and price is out.

[SMD]

56 minutes ago, bradigor said:

I really hope we have some sort of agreement in place for Bellingham. As if he carries on how he is a City, Madrid or PSG will just come in and price is out.

 

[Gabe]

This is why I asked the other day - there's been lots of linking the club with Bellingham, but is there any substance behind it? And if so, why has the club just waited and waited, thereby seeing the price increase as well as teams wanting him.

 

I suspect there's nothing going on behind the scenes and we'll see another transfer window pass with all the talk about being about him and no action.

[ryodi]

Dortmund only sell one star player a year and this year it was Haaland. Bellingham doesn’t have a release clause and wasn’t agitating for a move so they weren’t going to let him go. City also have an ageing midfield and Bernardo Silva apparently wants to leave at the end of the season so I think it’s more likely he ends up there than at Anfield.

[Chewylegs]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

 

I suspect there's nothing going on behind the scenes and we'll see another transfer window pass with all the talk about being about him and no action.

That's a pretty negative view to take about how we conduct our transfer business.  In recent years we've become very good at getting the players the manager wants, not spending time talking about it but getting things done quick and effectively.

Media talk is and always to be ignored until you see the player at the club IMO. If he goes to City, Madrid or whoever next year we will see, but I don't think it will be due to us not getting it done when we should have.

[SMD]

32 minutes ago, Chewylegs said:

That's a pretty negative view to take about how we conduct our transfer business.  In recent years we've become very good at getting the players the manager wants, not spending time talking about it but getting things done quick and effectively.

Media talk is and always to be ignored until you see the player at the club IMO. If he goes to City, Madrid or whoever next year we will see, but I don't think it will be due to us not getting it done when we should have.

 

Klopp has already been on record this summer saying transfers aren't in his hands, we fucked up on Tchouameni and that he can only spend what he's given.

 

We've clearly not spent anything close to our rivals, the owners refuse to even consider putting their hands in their pockets for anything that doesn't tangibly increase the value of the club and aren't really arsed if we win anything as long as we get top 4 and deep runs into the CL.

[Gabe]

1 hour ago, Chewylegs said:

That's a pretty negative view to take about how we conduct our transfer business.  In recent years we've become very good at getting the players the manager wants, not spending time talking about it but getting things done quick and effectively.

Media talk is and always to be ignored until you see the player at the club IMO. If he goes to City, Madrid or whoever next year we will see, but I don't think it will be due to us not getting it done when we should have.

Well I was originally only talking in reference to the Bellingham stuff, rather than wider transfer policy, but as @SMDhas mentioned it I will chip-in.

 

I've said before that the way the club is run isn't too dissimilar to the Glazers, in that trophies are almost a bonus to building the value of the brand and making money. Not as brazen about it, of course, but this is no passion project for the owners.

 

I stand by that and think this is backed-up by transfer dealings. You say that we're good at getting the players we want, but are really? I find it hard to imagine Nunez was ever a first-choice target versus the fact he was young and would have resale value. Minamino was bought because he was cheap and had resale value, nor did either of those players really fit in the system we play (accepting that with Nunez things may change). Ditto Elliott & Carvalho. Williams was sold because we got a very good offer for him, even though we have absolutely no good cover for TAA. Thiago is the exception, in that his purchase would seem to be more for footballing reasons just because of his age at the time.

 

Then look at who we've lost. Gini should never have been allowed to walk away for free. Mane wanted a pay rise. Henderson felt the need to have his agent do a bit of a press-blitz on how important he was to get his contract renewed (and whether the club were going to renew anyway or not is besides the point - *he* clearly wasn't sure.)

 

Sure, the club has spent money, but in isolation that doesn't tell you much. A better comparison is spending relative to those we are competing, and Tottenham, City, Chelsea, Man U - hell, even Arsenal have been out squad-building us. 

 

This isn't really a dig at the owners particularly and is not unique to us either (Wenger's Arsenal obviously had their '4th place is a trophy' period too), but it's more that I have much more realistic expectations these days of where the club sits with this ownership.

 

As such, with the squad seemingly aging at an accelerated rate at the moment, I don't see them being competitive for the 'big' trophies anytime soon - and I don't think the owners will really mind so long as they get 4th in the PL and have a decent CL run each season (e.g. quarter finals); que sera, sera.

[Chewylegs]

1 hour ago, SMD said:

 

Klopp has already been on record this summer saying transfers aren't in his hands, we fucked up on Tchouameni and that he can only spend what he's given.

 

We've clearly not spent anything close to our rivals, the owners refuse to even consider putting their hands in their pockets for anything that doesn't tangibly increase the value of the club and aren't really arsed if we win anything as long as we get top 4 and deep runs into the CL.

The club's transfer policy was a whole lot worse before FSG turned up.

 

And the bottom part of your quote is just personal opinion really isn't it?  Sounds a lot like the whinging Man U fans.

[SMD]

14 minutes ago, Gabe said:

Well I was originally only talking in reference to the Bellingham stuff, rather than wider transfer policy, but as @SMDhas mentioned it I will chip-in.

 

I've said before that the way the club is run isn't too dissimilar to the Glazers, in that trophies are almost a bonus to building the value of the brand and making money. Not as brazen about it, of course, but this is no passion project for the owners.

 

I stand by that and think this is backed-up by transfer dealings. You say that we're good at getting the players we want, but are really? I find it hard to imagine Nunez was ever a first-choice target versus the fact he was young and would have resale value. Minamino was bought because he was cheap and had resale value, nor did either of those players really fit in the system we play (accepting that with Nunez things may change). Ditto Elliott & Carvalho. Williams was sold because we got a very good offer for him, even though we have absolutely no good cover for TAA. Thiago is the exception, in that his purchase would seem to be more for footballing reasons just because of his age at the time.

 

Then look at who we've lost. Gini should never have been allowed to walk away for free. Mane wanted a pay rise. Henderson felt the need to have his agent do a bit of a press-blitz on how important he was to get his contract renewed (and whether the club were going to renew anyway or not is besides the point - *he* clearly wasn't sure.)

 

Sure, the club has spent money, but in isolation that doesn't tell you much. A better comparison is spending relative to those we are competing, and Tottenham, City, Chelsea, Man U - hell, even Arsenal have been out squad-building us. 

 

This isn't really a dig at the owners particularly and is not unique to us either (Wenger's Arsenal obviously had their '4th place is a trophy' period too), but it's more that I have much more realistic expectations these days of where the club sits with this ownership.

 

As such, with the squad seemingly aging at an accelerated rate at the moment, I don't see them being competitive for the 'big' trophies anytime soon - and I don't think the owners will really mind so long as they get 4th in the PL and have a decent CL run each season (e.g. quarter finals); que sera, sera.

 

I actually didn't have a problem with us selling Williams because the lad clearly needs minutes and loaning him out is pointless because of how young TAA is. We've had too many youngsters come into the squad over the last two decades and completely stagnate cos they don't play and get experience. Williams is unlucky that he came through at a time when we don't play with right midfielders and TAA has the flank locked up for the medium term. We should do more moves like that where we bring through players who are 19/20, good enough to start for sides lower down the table and potentially make it later on in their career. It's good for the lads and good for our transfer business.

 

I didn't even object too much to letting Wijnaldum go the season he left, because giving him the deal he wanted would've been crazy (and his career since then hasn't exactly disproved that). We should've signed him up much earlier so his deal would've had longer to run but that's a different issue.

Even Mane, as much as he was clutch last year after AFCON, was worth letting go for a fee now and on good terms than to either pay up or let him run down his contract. He's not getting any faster and we're not really able to carry this many aging players in the squad.

 

I'd keep Hendo past his sell by date because as captain he contributes more than most in the dressing room and with the youngsters.

 

It shouldn't be a mystery that our players playing and training the way they do will drop in performance without extended rests or replacements. You could be a conspiracy theorist and suggest the reason Edwards walked is he knew he couldn't do the evolutionary work on the squad that's needed.

 

[SMD]

5 minutes ago, Chewylegs said:

The club's transfer policy was a whole lot worse before FSG turned up.

 

And the bottom part of your quote is just personal opinion really isn't it?  Sounds a lot like the whinging Man U fans.

 

if we're going to endlessly compare FSG to Hicks and Gillett then there's really no point in discussing anything is there. It's the footballing equivalent of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.

[Chewylegs]

@Gabe

 

Mane, Gini, Salah, Robbo, Van Dijk, Fabinho, Alisson, Elliot, Konate - all bought end of season beginning of summer, no messing (apart from VVD)  Calvaho, Jota, Thiago also brought in.

 

All good if not very good purchases with 7 of them winning us the league title for the first time in 30 years.

 

Clubs will always miss out on some players, or perhaps not even miss out just never really be in the running for them.

 

I'm comparing to the days seeing us booting out Alonso, bringing in players like the broken Aquilani, Joe Allen, Charlie Adams, Benteke, Carroll etc.

 

I just think as usual football fans have unrealistic expectations and a very short memory.

 

[Chewylegs]

2 hours ago, Chewylegs said:

In recent years we've become very good at getting the players the manager wants, not spending time talking about it but getting things done quick and effectively

@SMD so really then if we aren't comparing with previous owners you just don't agree with this part of my post above?

 

We can agree to disagree on that.

[Chewylegs]

10 minutes ago, SMD said:

 

I actually didn't have a problem with us selling Williams because the lad clearly needs minutes and loaning him out is pointless because of how young TAA is. We've had too many youngsters come into the squad over the last two decades and completely stagnate cos they don't play and get experience. Williams is unlucky that he came through at a time when we don't play with right midfielders and TAA has the flank locked up for the medium term. We should do more moves like that where we bring through players who are 19/20, good enough to start for sides lower down the table and potentially make it later on in their career. It's good for the lads and good for our transfer business.

 

I didn't even object too much to letting Wijnaldum go the season he left, because giving him the deal he wanted would've been crazy (and his career since then hasn't exactly disproved that). We should've signed him up much earlier so his deal would've had longer to run but that's a different issue.

Even Mane, as much as he was clutch last year after AFCON, was worth letting go for a fee now and on good terms than to either pay up or let him run down his contract. He's not getting any faster and we're not really able to carry this many aging players in the squad.

 

I'd keep Hendo past his sell by date because as captain he contributes more than most in the dressing room and with the youngsters.

 

It shouldn't be a mystery that our players playing and training the way they do will drop in performance without extended rests or replacements. You could be a conspiracy theorist and suggest the reason Edwards walked is he knew he couldn't do the evolutionary work on the squad that's needed.

 

I agree with this.

[SMD]

11 minutes ago, Chewylegs said:

@SMD so really then if we aren't comparing with previous owners you just don't agree with this part of my post above?

 

We can agree to disagree on that.

 

I think Moores and G+H were absolute disasters in terms of owning a club that aims to challenge for titles. I don't disagree that the players you mentioned were signed at the behest of the manager but we got lucky with a combination of Klopp, the Coutinho sale and some relatively low fees for players who were overlooked. When we signed Mane, Firmino, Salah, etc we were working from a position of improving everywhere. When we got VVD we went all in on one player who'd transform our backline, same with Alisson transforming our defensive shape.

But when you get to the top, you start competing for the players that really stand out and if you can't get them then you're just going to keep banking on working magic on transfers.

 

You're going to have some players like Tchouameni who'll turn you down for the likes of Real, it happens. But clearly Bellingham wants us if we can make the deal work and him going anywhere else will be a case of us not wanting to pay what it takes. We've got a long history of trying to be cute and clever with transfers - Riedle instead of Sheringham, Kvarme instead of Thuram, Kewell instead of Duff, Downing instead of Mata, you just end up buying and selling players in the same position and wasting money on agent fees, taking hits on the transfers and losing ground to rivals.

 

Football is one of the few industries where holding onto money doesn't make sense, because the market doesn't get cheaper unless there's a crash that affects everyone. You can't play a bag of money, nor does it make sense to add more strain to your staff and squad by making them work harder for the same results. We know City have endless funds and we know that Chelsea, United and Newcastle can afford to throw money at their problems - but they can't sign every player, so why do we make it harder for ourselves?

 

Bellingham alone won't solve our problems, he'd be one less issue to fix over the long term but it's because we stopped being proactive in the market once we got to the sharp end of things that we're in this situation. Clubs are pragmatic, it's not like they're not talking all the time and trying to find the best deal for them. Dortmund could've and would've sold if there was the right offer. There were plenty of clubs in Europe who had young midfield prospects to sell, we couldn't identify a single one?

 

My take is that Klopp wasn't lying when he said there wasn't space in the squad but I'm pretty sure there were no real plans to rely on Oxlade Chamberlain this year - we just weren't prepared to let him go without someone taking on his wages. What's the point in keeping a man with a crap injury record the management can't trust to play in midfield for the sake of not paying him off? We should've given him the farewell he deserved at the end of last season and moved him on instantly.

 

How is it that almost every other club in the league can figure out how to buy good prospects? We were linked with Caicedo over the summer, he joined Brighton in January. We never heard of Ecuador? In his 12 appearances, we suddenly spotted something that wasn't obvious to us?

 

We have one of the best managers in the world, possibly of the modern era, and we don't give him all the tools he needs to do his job. It's sad, to be honest, that we put a limit on our own ambition because someone managed to seed the term 'sustainability' in completely the wrong context and it stuck.

[Chewylegs]

Fair enough, I'm not going to answer all that as I'm pretty most of it isn't aimed at me but, isn't Carvalho an identified young prospect?

Elliott too?

Ramsey?

 

Or are we talking younger?

[Adrock]

Just to add for the Williams sale, a young highly rated replacement was signed from Scotland, can't remember his name or club but it made perfect sense to sell Williams.

 

Unfortunately he was injured in the summer, if I recall correctly.

[Gabe]

38 minutes ago, Chewylegs said:

@Gabe

 

Mane, Gini, Salah, Robbo, Van Dijk, Fabinho, Alisson, Elliot, Konate - all bought end of season beginning of summer, no messing (apart from VVD)  Calvaho, Jota, Thiago also brought in.

 

All good if not very good purchases with 7 of them winning us the league title for the first time in 30 years.

 

Clubs will always miss out on some players, or perhaps not even miss out just never really be in the running for them.

 

I'm comparing to the days seeing us booting out Alonso, bringing in players like the broken Aquilani, Joe Allen, Charlie Adams, Benteke, Carroll etc.

 

I just think as usual football fans have unrealistic expectations and a very short memory.

 

Man, @SMDis putting in the work for me here 

 

To expand on the above though, I think looking at the transfers pre-FSG is irrelevant, because the club was operating in a very different space - one where getting 4th was a hope, rather than a realistic aim each year.

 

As for expectations, I've said in many posts (over the last few months in particular) that I don't have many. I said before the season I didn't see us challenging for the title, I don't think we are going to go far in the CL and nor do I have any reason to think we should, for the reasons I've explained - so having unrealistic expectations seems an unfair label to throw at me.

 

Regardless, as SMD says, there have been plenty of midfielders moving around in the summer that could've been an option, but instead we rely on Elliott and Carvalho to be our squad players. That's an unfair burden on them, even if Elliott in particular looks good.

 

I mean, Ivan Peresic on a free transfer could've been a useful squad option with some quality, but FSG aren't going to want to pay the wages of a 32-year-old with no resale value.

 

And yet amongst it all, there is talk about wanting to extend Kieta's contract, a player that gets a lot of flack for being walking wounded and very patchy when he does play. If I were completely cynical I would say that's to protect any value so he can be sold down the line, because its hard to make a good case for footballing reasons.

[Gabe]

3 minutes ago, Adrock said:

Just to add for the Williams sale, a young highly rated replacement was signed from Scotland, can't remember his name or club but it made perfect sense to sell Williams.

 

Unfortunately he was injured in the summer, if I recall correctly.

Yeah, I used Williams as an example, but his sale made sense in the context that he needed - and was vocal in agitating for - more minutes, especially as he played more minutes for Wales than he did for us! So keeping him would only have made him unhappy and stunt his growth, but I think it was only the value of the offer that made it an easy call; had it been, say, £5m I believe the club would've happily made him sit on the bench and serve out his contract.

 

And yes, Ramsey from Aberdeen is TAA's cover now. 

[Plissken]

20 minutes ago, SMD said:

My take is that Klopp wasn't lying when he said there wasn't space in the squad but I'm pretty sure there were no real plans to rely on Oxlade Chamberlain this year - we just weren't prepared to let him go without someone taking on his wages. What's the point in keeping a man with a crap injury record the management can't trust to play in midfield for the sake of not paying him off? We should've given him the farewell he deserved at the end of last season and moved him on instantly.

 

Just to jump in here, the split between the Big Clubs and the rest of the PL is not just in terms of position in the table.  Those clubs - including Liverpool - offer wages that the other clubs cannot begin to match and are not in a position to try to.  Selling players on the way down is becoming less and less viable.  You can't just "move him on".

[SMD]

7 minutes ago, Chewylegs said:

Fair enough, I'm not going to answer all that as I'm pretty most of it isn't aimed at me but, isn't Carvalho an identified young prospect?

Elliott too?

Ramsey?

 

Or are we talking younger?

 

They're great signings but it's too much to expect them to play 40-50 times a season now. The time to fill the squad with 20 year olds was 2-3 seasons ago. Now we need players in the 22-25 range who haven't peaked but can still play to a great level 90 minutes 2 or 3 times a week. We have this gap in experience and legs now where our best players are 28-31 and the next best players are 18-20. Look at Jones, someone who I think has a lot going for him but who hasn't really been able to play. It happens and I wouldn't think about binning him any time soon but it's a big gap in the squad now since our midfield is aging.

 

We're missing a 25 year old Wijnaldum or a 29 year old Milner, basically.

[SMD]

4 minutes ago, Plissken said:

 

Just to jump in here, the split between the Big Clubs and the rest of the PL is not just in terms of position in the table.  Those clubs - including Liverpool - offer wages that the other clubs cannot begin to match and are not in a position to try to.  Selling players on the way down is becoming less and less viable.  You can't just "move him on".

 

Oh yeah I know no one will come close to matching AOC's wages, it's just the cost of business for a club challenging for the title. There are no savings in keeping him on, we were never going to play him into a shop window. The best we could hope for was a team in the top 10 taking a punt on him and either us contributing to his wages or paying him off so he can collect a signing on fee.

[Chewylegs]

1 hour ago, SMD said:

How is it that almost every other club in the league can figure out how to buy good prospects?

Ah I read this as young prospects not good @SMD

[ryodi]

Arthur Melo needs surgery and is out for three to four months. All his signing has achieved so far is give Keita and Ox someone new to talk to in the treatment room.

[neoELITE]

On 06/10/2022 at 14:47, SMD said:

 

 

We have one of the best managers in the world, possibly of the modern era, and we don't give him all the tools he needs to do his job. 

 

Utter madness. It's a high press with millions of pounds behind it. Klopp has no idea what to do if Plan A fails. Put him in charge of someone like Southampton or Palace and see what he does.

[Chewylegs]

9 minutes ago, ryodi said:

Arthur Melo needs surgery and is out for three to four months. All his signing has achieved so far is give Keita and Ox someone new to talk to in the treatment room.

This made me chuckle! 

[Gabe]

Just now, neoELITE said:

Utter madness. It's a high press with millions of pounds behind it. Klopp has no idea what to do if Plan A fails. Put him in charge of someone like Southampton or Palace and see what he does.

How many successful winners of the top trophies don't have significant funds behind them? It's a pretty worthless statement.

 

However, I do tend to broadly agree that he hasn't shown much different tactically in the past few years - as I've spoken about at length in here - but, as I've also said, he hasn't really needed to because that press has done so well. 

[Gabe]

13 minutes ago, ryodi said:

Arthur Melo needs surgery and is out for three to four months. All his signing has achieved so far is give Keita and Ox someone new to talk to in the treatment room.

Well that was a good bit of business then. I wonder if they'll cancel the loan and actually put some money on the table and buy somebody in January? 

[glb]

1 hour ago, Gabe said:

Well that was a good bit of business then. I wonder if they'll cancel the loan and actually put some money on the table and buy somebody in January? 

 

They'll probably buy Arthur Melo.

[Gabe]

1 hour ago, glb said:

 

They'll probably buy Arthur Melo.

Probably, yeah.

[SMD]

3 hours ago, neoELITE said:

 

Utter madness. It's a high press with millions of pounds behind it. Klopp has no idea what to do if Plan A fails. Put him in charge of someone like Southampton or Palace and see what he does.