PlayStation 4 Console Thread

[Alex W.]

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be getting from those two completely different videos, except that the countdown to the start of the race is slower in 50Hz?

[Alex W.]

it doesn't mean they targetted 50Hz as the baseline performance level for their games. Most still made sure their games ran at their target performance level at 60Hz and the 50Hz version just runs slower naturally as a result of that decision.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here, but:

1) You can't run a game at 30 FPS on a 50Hz TV; instead they run at 25 FPS. That's just an inescapable technical fact. Your target in that case is 25 or 30 FPS over 526 or 480 lines. Fine, that's a limitation of the TV standard.

2) If the game's running at 25 FPS because it's in 50Hz mode, that doesn't necessarily mean the game is running slower. It can be running at the same pace, but with a lower temporal resolution.

[SeanR]

interlaced no less...

[footle]

I think it's whatever they where originally, so games with 60hz options will still have them in (I think), and those terrible early PAL games like Ridge Racer and Dark Cloud will be recreated in all of their bordered treacle framerate glory.

sigh.

It's worse than that, according to the latest digital foundry update. It's 50Hz badly up managed to 60Hz in an even worse foobarred way.

[Alex W.]

That's going to feel juddery as shit.

[Barny]

Christ, I really thought we had seen the end of the PAL/NTSC bullshit.

And let us get one thing absolutely, perfectly clear once and for all: PAL versions of pre HD videogames are always worse than the NTSC version. PAL videogames that haven't got a 60hz switch are the devil's spawn. Even when PAL optimized.

Disclaimers: 60hz switches, PAL60, yes I know some PAL versions had bug fixes and faster loading and so and so on.

[Kevvy Metal]

Devil May Cry was a particularly egregious offender, being slower, squashed, and having the game run full speed in its own attract mode video to remind you what could have been.

Ahhhh the "good old days" back in the PS2/GC/Xbox days I literally imported everything, and still have it all!

Every game

Devil May Cry was a particularly egregious offender, being slower, squashed, and having the game run full speed in its own attract mode video to remind you what could have been.

Ahhhh the "good old days" back in the PS2/GC/Xbox days I literally imported everything, and still have it all!

Every game from either videogamesplus or playasia.

I really don't miss those days though

[footle]

Christ, I really thought we had seen the end of the PAL/NTSC bullshit.

And let us get one thing absolutely, perfectly clear once and for all: PAL versions of pre HD videogames are always worse than the NTSC version. PAL videogames that haven't got a 60hz switch are the devil's spawn. Even when PAL optimized.

Disclaimers: 60hz switches, PAL60, yes I know some PAL versions had bug fixes and faster loading and so and so on.

They're presumably worried that "the gamers" will realise that they were ripped off in Europe for years, paying more for an inferior product, if they were exposed to games running properly.

And not realise that they were ripped off by everyone.

[Fury4k]

More likely there's some licensing issue, no?

[Super Craig]

And localisation.

[Coltrane]

Max Payne is coming for PS4. Loved that game in the day but not sure if I'll buy it again. Interested to see what it looks like upres'd.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-12-07-max-payne-rating-leaked-for-ps4

[Mr Do 71]

The Tomorrow Children's closed beta begins January 21

https://t.co/pwo02Cru9C

Sign up here: http://playstation.com/euttcbeta

[K]

Wasn’t the PS2 version of Max Payne a bit of a shocker? I remember it looking really rough next to the Xbox and PC versions, with a wonkaloid frame rate and that classic muddy look you got on some PS2 ports. I’m surprised Rockstar haven’t just done a port of the (surprisingly good) mobile version, it’d look a million times better.

[Coltrane]

Yeah I vaguely remember it being a bit of a dog. I played the PC version which looked great at the time.

[Unofficial Who]

I've played the PS2 and PC versions of Max Payne 1 and 2. If they're the PS2 ports.....avoid. Seriously. I'm all for preserving old games but these ports aren't the best way to play Max Payne.

[SozzlyJoe]

That's going to feel juddery as shit.

Meh, it's really not noticeable. I guess you would notice it in scrolling credits or a news ticker style display, but I haven't seen that yet to judge. Considering the originals (assuming we are talking Vice City or SA here) constantly dropped to the low 20s in fps and these stay at a solid 30 I'd say we have come out ahead.

The bigger drawback is the price.

[mushashi]

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here, but:

1) You can't run a game at 30 FPS on a 50Hz TV; instead they run at 25 FPS. That's just an inescapable technical fact. Your target in that case is 25 or 30 FPS over 526 or 480 lines. Fine, that's a limitation of the TV standard.

2) If the game's running at 25 FPS because it's in 50Hz mode, that doesn't necessarily mean the game is running slower. It can be running at the same pace, but with a lower temporal resolution.

Game speed was tied to refresh rate, game devs developed for 60Hz usually, so 50Hz version is naturally slower in practice. Unless the dev went back and sped the PAL version up to compensate for that fact in the game code, which is what the PAL-optimised titles did, full PAL resolution and speed compensated to match the NTSC version. As a result, some PAL-optimised titles fuck up when you attempted to run them at 60Hz, as now you are too fast, instead of too slow.

Wasn’t the PS2 version of Max Payne a bit of a shocker?

Richard Leadbetter already tested it when it was a PS2 classic for the PS3, it's awful, but expecting a PC dev game to run well as-is on something like the PS2 is always going to require a complete retooling to work well.

Moving on, our final test is Rockstar's Max Payne - a game that the publisher has recently released for iOS and Android, enhanced above and beyond the initial PC release. It is also completely awful - a shambling approximation of the original game that is laughably over-priced at £7.99/$9.99, and a mockery of the term "PS2 Classic". Pared down graphics, dire animation, awful frame-rate, borderline unplayable in many areas - Max Payne on PS2 is beyond redemption.

Max Payne runs with a completely unlocked frame-rate, and there seems to be little rhyme or reason as to when the next frame appears, resulting in a fundamentally broken, jerky game: laughable amounts of auto-aim are added to the basic gameplay simply to ensure that the player manages to hit the opposition. It truly is that bad.

This short analysis of the Max Payne intro demonstrates what actually happens during gameplay rather nicely. There are sections here when the NTSC version runs at 30FPS, with the PAL game only producing 25FPS when rendering the exact same sections of the game - textbook stuff when comparing the same game from two different regions. However, equally important is that when we see frame-rate drops, performance between the two versions equalises - so at least when PAL games aren't running at optimal speed, at least you're not being penalised still further.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-ps2-classics-on-ps3

Even nearly a decade after death, the ghosts of PAL50 continue to give European buyers the shaft, even this emulator isn't PAL-optimised . It's not as if 50Hz isn't officially supported by all modern TVs sold in Europe or anything...

[SozzlyJoe]

My guess as to why it does not just output 50Hz is that it is to avoid your TV black screening while it switches to and from the PS Menu.

Similar to the issue XBone had with pass through TV output.

It would be nice if you could specifically pick that as an option! But disappointingly the new emulator doesn't appear to have any user settings (unlike the PS3 one which allowed you to turn smoothing on and off and a few other things).

[mushashi]

If there had been a successful console manufacturer from Europe, PAL wouldn't be a complete afterthought. Even with TVs, because all the best companies hail from NTSC/60Hz regions, they do a half-arsed job of properly supporting even PAL TV broadcast. Panasonic, I'm looking at you.

China is technically a 50Hz region, so maybe one day we'll get there, now that Europe doesn't have anybody left to defend our honour natively. RIP Loewe/Philips.

[Alex W.]

Game speed was tied to refresh rate

In 2D games for sure*, but in 3D titles you can generally set the cadence of the simulation and the cadence of the frames so that the game progresses at the "right speed", can't you? I don't recall needing faster reaction times when I switched up to 60Hz in my Xbox and GC games.

*There's no way to display 30 frames of 2D animation in 1 second at 25 fps.

[mushashi]

So you're trying to tell me that polygon-based titles designed for 60Hz didn't run slower when ran at 50Hz, unless specifically reprogrammed to compensate?

Devil May Cry,jpg

It's the exact same thing as film material running at PAL speed, it runs literally faster as a result, while the NTSC version has to use some tricks to cram 24 frames into 30 frames per second and keep the same speed. (somebody will likely point out this isn't exactly 100% correct for film to NTSC, but its a close enough explanation of how it works practically).

[Alex W.]

So you're trying to tell me that polygon-based titles designed for 60Hz didn't run slower when ran at 50Hz, unless specifically reprogrammed to compensate?

No, I was specifically describing how they can be programmed to compensate!

[mushashi]

That didn't seem to be what you were referring to when you quoted me, as I mentioned the need to speed up the PAL versions in the post you replied to. The GTA games had some ingame logic stuff tied to the refresh rate too, which is actually a problem with the latest Bethesda title (but that is just plain laziness on their part for still relying on such old tech and not wanting to spend the time and money to move to a newer engine).

[Alex W.]

When I said I wasn't sure what you were referring to and gave the two points it wasn't meant to be a rhetorical device, I was trying to check whether my understanding of this stuff was right. I thought you might've meant that polygon games were also stuck with inevitable slowdown at 50Hz which for all I know is possible.

[Fletch]

So I was this close ???? to trading in the Bone for a PS4 but reading the last few pages of this thread has changed my mind. I'll leave it a while and see what the VR headset is like. Cheers all.

[Lovelyman]

Wot no bloodborne! My nose is over a wall!

[SozzlyJoe]

So I was this close to trading in the Bone for a PS4 but reading the last few pages of this thread has changed my mind. I'll leave it a while and see what the VR headset is like. Cheers all.

That 50Hz version of a PS2 GTA game was a real deal breaker, huh?

[Fletch]

That'll be it Joe, the countless pages of discussion around that was what sealed it.

[womblingfree]

50hz was the worst thing ever. I seem to remember most games getting 60hz options on the Dreamcast though, and a few on PS2.

The whole situation was so shite that the PS4's the first European console I've bought since the Sega Megadrive, back when I was too young to realise the squashy slow crap I was playing.

[p1nseeker]