PlayStation 4 Console Thread

[JohnC]

PS2 disks are just DVDs.

Apart from the ones which are CDs.

[MattyP]

Well, let's all play amateur system designer. The ability to physically read a DVD disc doesn't assume also the ability to read the file format.

no. All I'm saying it obviously was a conscious decision the Sony engineers took when designing the PS4 system to not allow it to read PS2 DVD format disks. Which may have been a business decision to cut costs or otherwise.

Anyway its all kind of irrelevant anyway as it looks like Sony never intended to support older generation physical disk games on the current hardware and opted for re-selling them which is fine too. That's a business decision they have made no one is forced to buy the content after all.

Personally I quite like the fact that MS will allow me to play some of my old 360 games without any additional cost. Think if Sony allowed a similar thing on PS4 with PS2/3 games no one would complain. Its a nice option to have. Especially if you have a collection of games you want to continue to play without digging out the old hardware all the time.

[MattyP]

Apart from the ones which are CDs.

Yeah the blue-backed ones remember those. Not many ever got released only really early games. Think my copy of Gradius 3/4 is the only one I have. IIRC it was these disks that were having problems being used when Sony had an issue with failing lasers on the PS2.

Edit. Just looked down that list didn't realise so many games got a release on CD!! And the fact they weren't all blue backed either...

[Smoothy]

no. All I'm saying it obviously was a conscious decision the Sony engineers took when designing the PS4 system to not allow it to read PS2 DVD format disks. Which may have been a business decision to cut costs or otherwise.

Eh? The PS2 is a totally different system architecture. It doesn't mean there was a totally conscious decision to make the PS4 incompatible, the fact that the system architecture is totally different means that there has to be specific work in order to emulate the older system's architecture in order to have backwards compatibility, e.g. what Microsoft had to do with the 360 and One.

The PlayStations aren't PCs.

[DocG]

no. All I'm saying it obviously was a conscious decision the Sony engineers took when designing the PS4 system to not allow it to read PS2 DVD format disks. Which may have been a business decision to cut costs or otherwise.

This is far from obvious.

The PS4 shipped in Nov 2013; let's suppose the hardware spec was locked for six months before that. That takes us back to mid-2013, or two and a half years before PS2 backcompat appeared. That long gap probably indicates that PS2 compatibility wasn't on the spec sheet back then, and was only added relatively recently (as is also true of the Xbox One.) In which case it is not impossible that some obscure hardware limitation has turned out to prevent disc compatibility.

If disc compatibility was deliberately crippled to support the release of BC 2.5 years later, it implies BC has been in the works for two and a half years -- a staggering length of time for what is a relatively minor feature. I think that's unlikely. If Sony started BC work before the launch of the PS4, I submit it's fairly likely it would have cancelled it before now for not being worth the time and effort it had taken.

[Smoothy]

... In which case it is not impossible that some obscure hardware limitation has turned out to prevent disc compatibility.

Yeah the fact that the system architecture between the two consoles are totally different.

[MattyP]

Eh? The PS2 is a totally different system architecture. It doesn't mean there was a totally conscious decision to make the PS4 incompatible, the fact that the system architecture is totally different means that there has to be specific work in order to emulate the older system's architecture in order to have backwards compatibility, e.g. what Microsoft had to do with the 360 and One.

The PlayStations aren't PCs.

Of course they are different architectures d'oh. I understand that, just find it odd that supposedly the PS4 cannot read PS2 DVD disks and can movie DVD disks. Or can it read any DVD disks? DVD just requires a certain laser to read it which I believe the PS4 has.

Anyhow. Sony are intent on selling you old games. End of. That is clearly their business decision. Buy or don't buy its our choice. Personally think its a shame you can't play your old content again but will maybe be able to rebuy it.

[TehStu]

You mean, you find it odd that it can't read the file format of PS2 discs, not that it can't read DVDs.

[MattyP]

You mean, you find it odd that it can't read the file format of PS2 discs, not that it can't read DVDs.

Well if the hardware can read it the firmware can programmed to support it. So yes.

Anyhow my PC ,thankfully, has no issues reading the file format of PS2 disks either directly or from the ISO images I make of them to play on the emulator I have. So all good for me personally as I can continue to play my PS2 games in future on there. Without any additional cost.

[mushashi]

I'm genuinely puzzled as to how they manage to integrate trophies into ISOs

Sony filed a patent a few years ago explaining it, a mod on NeoGAF did the same for the NES. Somebody else has taken it to the logical conclusion and modded a whole bunch of emulators to allow the point whores to infect all systems:

http://retroachievements.org/

By design though huh? Thought PS2 disks are just DVD's and the PS4 plays DVDs no? Surely the fact it can play DVDs would mean that it can technically read a DVD disk and so a PS2 disk. Anyway evidently Sony have locked it down for whatever reason.

The copyprotection of the original PlayStation and PS2 are slightly more complex than your basic CD/DVD pickup. They'd need to include the original copy-protection reading hardware to stop pirated discs from being validated to allow discs to work. The PS2 has similar copy protection tricks.

The pregap mentioned above is mastered with a WOBBLE in it's groove. The PSX's 3 beam pickup can follow and detect the wobble. A normal reader will only see normal data there, but the psx will see a wobbly groove with a constant frequency and changing amplitude. The amplitude changes form low to high and back form the basis of an encoding method that is used to encode the ASCII letters SCE(I/E/A) (Japan/Europe/America) over and over within those 2 seconds.

This protection is considered (still!) impossible to duplicate on a CDR. this is because 1) no software yet will let you control the initial pregap and let you write it raw, and even if it did 2) no burner will let you write a wobble, and also 3) CDR media includes it's own wobble in the pregroove, which is used for Absolute Time In Pregroove (ATIP) this TIP is encoded into the roughly 22.05khz wobble by modulating it's frequency. Since no burner can obliterate the wobble, you're stuck. The only way to put the proper wobble on a disc is to master it on there. this is what the psx-change people did.

Note that this wobble does not break any standards. as far as a normal single beam CD reader is concerned, the wobble doesn't' even exist, as it will simply plow through the center, and not see the edges of the wobble. ad a normal 3 beam reader will simply follow the wobble and see nothing out of the ordinary. but the psx has a special circuit that reads the wobble, an interprets the wobble code, shoving letters into the right place.

[TehStu]

Ah, hardware copy protection. I knew there'd be something to it, other than "it's just files on a DVD". I just assumed the copy protection was in software.

[TehStu]

Yeah, mentioned this to my wife and she's already interested in KH2, Katamari, etc., should those become available. I'll be honest, I never played San Andreas or Vice City, and quite fancy both of those.

[mushashi]

The main notable thing about this emulator is that it is the first official one which isn't complete shit in how it decides to do things (up-rendering and running games at faster than native framerates), all the other BC attempts slavishly stick to the official hardware spec, unlike homebrew emulators, which have long allowed you to improve the game by up-rendering and other useful additions. The purists might hate it, but it's the primary reason to use emulation on the PC, even if its buggy at times.

[MattyP]

Up-resing to 1080p is a big deal. I may have to try out Parappa 2 and TM:Black. I don't understand the negativity so much. On Wii they didn't even up res and people were willing to pay £18 for a game*, when MS announced backwards compatibility it was the One's saving grace and a "turning point"! Sony does an average job to match them and everyone gets sore cos they can't get 1080p versions for free.

*I'm assuming these will be less than £15.

True. They are still great games after all and worth the money if you've never played them first time around.

Personally dont mind as I have means to play my old games.

In the end we mostly buy newer versions of older game ideas/designs anyway hence the numbers after any big franchises...

[Qazimod]

I have a PS2.

I have a PS2 but every time the disc tray slowly creaks open I feel like the console's begging to be taken out back and put out of its misery

I ripped P4 and VJ a while ago to try them on PCSX2 and they run like a dream, which is nice. I just need a controller.

[Smoothy]

Of course they are different architectures d'oh. I understand that, just find it odd that supposedly the PS4 cannot read PS2 DVD disks and can movie DVD disks. Or can it read any DVD disks? DVD just requires a certain laser to read it which I believe the PS4 has.

The PS4 can read DVDs. It can't do anything about the data on PS2 DVDs in the exact same way it can't do anything about the data on PC DVDs, as well as the other slight differences that a PS2 DVD has over a standard DVD (copy protection, etc.).

[Not Thread Owner]

I have a PS1, PS2, PS3 and most generations of the other consoles. I play on my PS4.

Who has time for all of this old stuff? I mean, who would actually sit down and play Mark of Kri (which is a great game) rather than Fallout 4 or Skyrim or something?

Those examples, no. But I'll happily play old games rather than new games. I just like playing games.

[Wiper]

Up-resing to 1080p is a big deal. I may have to try out Parappa 2 and TM:Black. I don't understand the negativity so much. On Wii they didn't even up res and people were willing to pay £18 for a game*, when MS announced backwards compatibility it was the One's saving grace and a "turning point"! Sony does an average job to match them and everyone gets sore cos they can't get 1080p versions for free.

*I'm assuming these will be less than £15.

If Parappa 2 were in that list I'd have been a lot less negative about the selection, but the last time I looked it wasn't. As for your other comments, I've complained before about Nintendo overpricing their rereleases, so I'm not suddenly happier that Sony are following their pricing logic; and as for Microsoft's emulation being received more positively, well, it is more impressive inasmuch as it's for the last generation, not the one before it,* it's more generous in that you don't need to buy the games a second time (and I do seem to recall that a few of the games have actually been up-ressed and/or benefit from improved framerates, though obviously as it's 360 era that's not always possible), and if you need to buy a copy they're generally cheaper than these PS2 games seem to be priced anyway (particularly if you just fancy a second-hand physical copy).

*though I really wish they would add original Xbox emulation too

[mushashi]

If Parappa 2 were in that list I'd have been a lot less negative about the selection, but the last time I looked it wasn't. As for your other comments, I've complained before about Nintendo overpricing their rereleases, so I'm not suddenly happier that Sony are following their pricing logic; and as for Microsoft's emulation being received more positively, well, it is more impressive inasmuch as it's for the last generation, not the one before it,* and it's more generous in that you don't need to buy the games a second time (and they do up-res them where possible, though obviously as it's 360 era that's not always possible), and if you do decide to buy a digital copy they're generally cheaper than these PS2 games anyway.

*though I really wish they would add original Xbox emulation too

30 seconds in.

I assume Xbox emulation won't happen on X1 for one simple reason:

Nvidia had to be paid off for it to happen on X360. There is little financial gain to Microsoft to spend time on it.

[TehStu]

Phil Spencer probably shouldn't mention he'd like to see it, in that case.

[Wiper]

30 seconds in.

I assume Xbox emulation won't happen on X1 for one simple reason:

Nvidia had to be paid off for it to happen on X360. There is little financial gain to Microsoft to spend time on it.

Ah, I didn't see the video - I've only been going on the 8 released titles. And yeah, I didn't expect we'd see Xbox emulation on the Bone, so it looks like I'll need to keep two massive Microsoft consoles under the TV for the foreseeable future

[MattyP]

I have a PS2 but every time the disc tray slowly creaks open I feel like the console's begging to be taken out back and put out of its misery

I ripped P4 and VJ a while ago to try them on PCSX2 and they run like a dream, which is nice. I just need a controller.

Yeah my PS2 does the same thing which is what prompted me to look at emulation on the PC! (have around 60 PS2 games on disc) I was amazed how easy it was. I also use my Xbox 360 wireless pad on the PC too which is a bonus as I always preferred the Xbox pad layout over the PS one. It's great. It's like playing the PS2 games at their best. Especially with all the tweaks you can make on the PC.

[mushashi]

You might want to look into the Microsoft capacitor problem on the original Xbox (it's up there with other endemic cheap design flaws), I already lost one box to the problem but I'm too lazy to confirm it failed due to that.

[MattyP]

The PS4 can read DVDs. It can't do anything about the data on PS2 DVDs in the exact same way it can't do anything about the data on PC DVDs, as well as the other slight differences that a PS2 DVD has over a standard DVD (copy protection, etc.).

I know. What I'm saying is that Sony could if it so desired write something into the firmware or the emulator to read the PS2 disk and verify the game and then use this as a key to download the PS2 game digitally. Anyway it's all academic really isn't it because Sony ain't going to do it.

[Alex W.]

If they don't implement the DRM then you could just run off DVDRWs and unlock all the digital PS2 purchases you want. That will be the tricky part if, as implied here, the DRM depends on a special reader.

[rafaqat]

And their customers certainly aren't going to push them for it either going by this thread.

[MattyP]

And their customers certainly aren't going to push them for it either going by this thread.

I don't get it either. Not sure why people seem to be against having Sony do something like this. It would be a nice good will gesture to long term Sony fans.

However I guess they expect most PS2 gamers have moved on now and the target demographic for PS4 (18-30?) wouldn't be interested in running old PS2 disks and would probably buy a digital copy of a game they may never have played for a (relatively) cheap price. Fair play to them.

Like the fact MS are doing BC but TBH for me it was a bonus and didn't get the machine because it did this.

Anyway lets face it at least Sony are reissuing some PS2 games for a new generation of gamers to enjoy. Which is a good thing as there is a great library to select from.

[bobontheway]

Does anybody have a link to a recording of the stream? I'd like to watch the event but I figure if I actually search for it on Google/YouTube that I'll just see a list of every announcement.

[Bojangle]

I know. What I'm saying is that Sony could if it so desired write something into the firmware or the emulator to read the PS2 disk and verify the game and then use this as a key to download the PS2 game digitally. Anyway it's all academic really isn't it because Sony ain't going to do it.

You have no idea if Sony could do this. Maybe it's physically impossible for them?

[Superunknown]

And their customers certainly aren't going to push them for it either going by this thread.

I don't get it either. Not sure why people seem to be against having Sony do something like this. It would be a nice good will gesture to long term Sony fans.

From what's already been posted we know that reading PS2 disc DRM requires a three beam pickup. Do you know if the PS4 even contains that before saying they could just flip a switch in firmware?