PlayStation 4 Console Thread

[MattyP]

Blu ray player manufacturers were never under any obligation to make them compatible. You'll notice that blu ray players don't play VHS, for instance.

They weren't. But if they didn't blu-ray would have tanked.

Peoples expectations have changed over the years.

[instasis]

"Take money off them"? Has capitalism now advanced to such a stage that consumers no longer have an element of choice in whether or not they buy something and Sony is actually going to come into your house and make you pay again to play the game you already own on a different machine?

I'm fine with it if there's some sort of value add. For instance replacing a video tape with a DVD made a lot of sense. Extra viewing and language options, bonus features, commentary tracks. Well worth the extra.

And if we're looking at games, where the assets are redone and extra work has been put into it, I'm fine with that.

But I'm sick of losing access to my old games and being asked to repurchase access to them when I've paid good money in the first place rather than pirating.

In this case Sony risks the same sort of piss take advert being done to them in a similar vein to the one they did of MS inn regards to lending games.

Not sure how it is in the UK but loads of discs being sold in Australia now come with a download code as well so you can d'load a legal copy for your portable device.

Sony haven't removed your access to your old games. You still have them, and the opportunity to play. Just not on the hardware that never supported them, and that the never claimed it would do.

And charging for BC is nowhere near the same scale of idiocy as MS' long abandoned policy of game lending.

Worth noting, Nintendo have been charging for BC under emulation for the best part of a decade now - and didn't they charge you again for the BC titles you'd bought when you switched to WiiU?

BC is an industry wide issue. That MS didn't haven't a solution when they came to market, that Sony still don't and that Nintendo haven't quite figured it out yet is absolutely deplorable. All three have been caught completely off guard by mobile and the consistency of access it's enabled.

[Bojangle]

They weren't. But if they didn't blu-ray would have tanked.

That's impossible to say. DVD did fine without (most) players being able to also play VHS.

[MansizeRooster]

They weren't. But if they didn't blu-ray would have tanked.

Peoples expectations have changed over the years.

They wouldn't have tanked if they were loaded in PS3s, as they were.

If it was technically unfeasable to have blu ray players play dvds, then they wouldn't. Simple.

[MW_Jimmy]

PS1 classics allowed me to finally play Klonoa, Tomba, Gaia Seed and a bunch of RPGs that never even made it to Europe. The digital prices on these releases have always been reasonable. I'm hopeful I'll have a similar experience with the PS2 classics.

Disc support is nice but not essential in my view - making digital versions of PS2 games shows commitment to preservation for future generations.

[MattyP]

Well as long as that format was computer based. Wanted Orange Box on 360? Had to buy it.

Steam doesn't really use a model. It's just standard PC stuff. Some older games will have trouble running on newer OS, especially if the dev hasn't done anything with them. In many cases you're much better off buying an old game off GOG for example as it'll have been updated to work on new machines, widescreen support etc.

Well yeah. But my point was Steam/Valve could have forced me to rebuy Half Life 2 on the Mac as essentially PC and Mac are different formats - the OS's are incompatible etc.

Just saying I like that idea. If I buy a game now I can still play it on a future Playstation or XBox. Especially as given they are now on x86 architecture.

[PaB]

I bought a movie on DVD. I want to play it on my Bluray player.

2 or 3 generations? More like Betamax

[MattyP]

They wouldn't have tanked if they were loaded in PS3s, as they were.

If it was technically unfeasable to have blu ray players play dvds, then they wouldn't. Simple.

So what you are saying if people couldn't play their library of DVDs in a Blu-Ray player the Blu-Ray format and adoption rate would have been the same?

Personally I think the whole Blu-Ray concept was based around making it work with DVDs first then extending this format to make a HD version. Simple as.

The next console hardware should essentially do the same thing. Allow playing of current content the extend it to make it more powerful. Its all about creating platforms and extending them now not destroying them every generation and expecting people to re-buy their old content. It won't work anymore.

Effectively digital will eventually kill of discs anyway. Streaming and digital purchases will only ever get more popular. Especially with future generations of consumers....

[Unofficial Who]

One of the reasons I skipped the PS3 was that Sony made a huge song and dance about how you'd be able to build up a library of games and play them into the future, only to renege on that with the PS3.

And one of the reasons it's an issue now is that

-Microsoft have a model where you can play your old games on their new console without paying an extra fee.

-It's been shown that the PS4 can run PS2 games in software.

As has been pointed out, there's no easy way to verify CD games through the PS4. So it's physically impossible. But there's no reason why Sony could garner a lot of good will from people with PS2 DVD game collections in the same way MS has.

It won't happen of course because

-$$$

and

-time I spend playing We Love Katamari on the PS4 is time spent not buying PS4 titles.

I've said this before though, I don't have to swap players with my movies. I don't have to swap players with my music. I'm becoming less tolerant of being told I have to with software. Especially with mobile and PC/Mac showing the way on this sort of thing.

[MattyP]

That's impossible to say. DVD did fine without (most) players being able to also play VHS.

There were *massive* technical advantages of DVD (5.1 sound, picture quality etc) over VHS. Not so with Blu-Ray and DVD. Sure for the a select few that demand the highest quality. Its why you can still buy DVDs titles to this day. Many haven't even bought into Blu-Ray as a format. Hell I have a mass collection of DVDs and appreciate the technical progress in terms of quality of Blu-Ray. However only own 2 Blu-Ray disks. Most people don't care and just buy the cheapest they can get at a quality that is acceptable to them. Which is why ultimately disks are dead for mass market. Streaming services will be the way most people consume video in future if they are not already. All IMHO of course and general observations from people I chat with...

[FishyFish]

I wouldn't have any issue with paying for the emulator itself as a one-off cost if that then allowed me to use any PS2 discs I already owned at no extra fee. I'd then expect any PS2 game I didn't own to be downloadable at additional cost.

This way, people would be paying Sony for the emulator, which is a new piece of software, but not for stuff they've already bought (assuming that PS2 discs can be read by the PS4).

[DocG]

As pointed out above they can't do this simply because the PS4 isn't capable of reading CDs.

PS2 DVD games, yes.

I see this quoted a lot but I've never seen a solid source. While its true that BR and CD/DVD are dissimilar enough wavelengths that they are different lasers, CD and DVD are close enough together that every player since the dawn of DVDs has shipped a tunable laser that can do both. And of course the PS4 can certainly play DVDs. It's possible Sony used a DVD-only red laser and shaved a few cents off the cost... but that would imply a custom component, rather than a decades-old standard one, and could actually make the whole thing more expensive. Is there a canoncial source, then? Or is it just hearsay based on the PS4 not playing audio CDs (which could easily be due to software, albeit a baffling limitation, but Sony's software department does ten baffling things each day before breakfast.)

[Unofficial Who]

I wouldn't have any issue with paying for the emulator itself as a one-off cost if that then allowed me to use any PS2 discs I already owned at no extra fee. I'd then expect any PS2 game I didn't own to be downloadable at additional cost.

This way, people would be paying Sony for the emulator, which is a new piece of software, but not for stuff they've already bought (assuming that PS2 discs can be read by the PS4).

I'd even be fine with paying a small microtransaction for game specific drivers. You have to admit though, MS has created the new standard with the Bone with how it works.

Bone owners are playing Dirt3 without any hitches. If your emulator is solid enough to run racing games it's pretty solid.

[SeanR]

I bought a movie on DVD. I want to play it on my Bluray player.

[DocG]

I see this quoted a lot but I've never seen a solid source.

From the PS4's spec sheet:

I'm pretty sure the hardware is capable of reading CDs.

[Superunknown]

One of the reasons I skipped the PS3 was that Sony made a huge song and dance about how you'd be able to build up a library of games and play them into the future, only to renege on that with the PS3.

And one of the reasons it's an issue now is that

-Microsoft have a model where you can play your old games on their new console without paying an extra fee.

<snip>

I've said this before though, I don't have to swap players with my movies. I don't have to swap players with my music. I'm becoming less tolerant of being told I have to with software. Especially with mobile and PC/Mac showing the way on this sort of thing.

They do. But only if the publisher of your old game has consented for it to be recompiled and distributed. It's a step in the right direction, but a far cry from being full BC and it's highly likely that many titles will never reach the service. So you'll still need a 360 and I don't feel it's the "new standard" you refer to. That would involve mobile-style BC which we'll hopefully get from this point, at least whilst architecture is x86 based.

[mushashi]

If Sony/Microsoft don't embrace the platform mentality like iOS or Android they will be dead formats in the future IMHO. They will always find a new audience but will lose the existing ones if they effectively "trash" someone's library of content on each new hardware release.

And I suppose you expect the same benefits from the console business model in the future while also enjoying these benefits from the PC/Mobile hardware business model I assume...?

I think that's what I'd call wanting your cake and eating it too, as those things seem a bit mildly conflicted in terms of a sustainable business idea.

[hereticboy]

I don't have any PS2 discs, so I don't care.

[TehStu]

Good grief, trying to justify why I can't play old games for a console that's dead or could be at any time. Look, we know there's no expectations, and I'm sure people here as always, differ from Joe Public. However, it wouldn't kill them to build the brand by allowing you to use old discs. Like I said, it might encourage you to be bothered about buying other stuff.

They charge because they can, because they're ahead. It's not difficult. When Sony were behind, they had free PSN and dropped PS+ on us. MS are behind so they're the ones trying to innovate now. We got Live when they were behind last.

This isn't difficult. However, the whole expectations discussion is disappointing. Yeah, how dare I expect more from these people.

[Not Thread Owner]

I don't have any PS2 discs, so I don't care.

I do, but I don't care. Just get Yakuza 1 and 2 on the PS4 and that'll do me.

[TehStu]

Vague rant about the effort from our market leader aside, I realized last night I still don't know, after nearly 2 years of ownership, how the damn DVR stuff works. Is it recording 15 minutes of video constantly? I clicked share last night and couldn't see any obvious way to see the last 15 minutes. However, I double clicked share by accident and it seemed to start recording, and then told me it had saved the video when 15 minutes had elapsed.

So it only records when you tell it to?

[Loki]

It constantly records 15 minutes. Click share once and you can save the last 15 minutes.

Click share twice and you basically tell it to forget the last 15 minutes and start recording. Pressing it once again allows you to share from the point you double clicked.

[DocG]

It constantly records 15 minutes. Click share once and you can save the last 15 minutes.

...except when it mysteriously isn't recording when you go into the Share menu. Admittedly I haven't seen this in a long time, but it used to be a pretty regular occurrence back in the days of earlier PS4 OS releases.

[TehStu]

It constantly records 15 minutes. Click share once and you can save the last 15 minutes.

Click share twice and you basically tell it to forget the last 15 minutes and start recording. Pressing it once again allows you to share from the point you double clicked.

Damn. I did a 30 minute race, sounds like I could have had it all in 15min segments. Sorry to sound dumb, but where do I access the last 15 minutes of footage? I saw options for save screenshot, upload screenshot, upload video etc., but not "save the last 15 mins."

[Loki]

To save it without having to click on "Upload a video", I think it's Triangle for saving a screenshot and Square for saving a video. It tells you at the very bottom of the screen though, so just check there to be sure.

Then you can close the share window and upload it at a later date.

[TehStu]

Brilliant, ta.

Another issue I had was uploading to YouTube. I clicked to upload that saved video, selected YT, logged in, entered my 2FA, agreed to the bits of my Google account PSN could access, then it took me right back to the beginning. I tried it a couple of times to no avail. In fact, according to my google account settings, PSN isn't showing up as an authorized app, which it ought to have.

[Shimmyhill]

...except when it mysteriously isn't recording when you go into the Share menu. Admittedly I haven't seen this in a long time, but it used to be a pretty regular occurrence back in the days of earlier PS4 OS releases.

Thats all been fixed, you wouldn't know as Sony never said they fixed it or even admitted to the fault but as whiner number one about this issue I can happily tell you its all good now.

[MattyP]

And I suppose you expect the same benefits from the console business model in the future while also enjoying these benefits from the PC/Mobile hardware business model I assume...?

I think that's what I'd call wanting your cake and eating it too, as those things seem a bit mildly conflicted in terms of a sustainable business idea.

Not quite sure what the point is?

All I was saying is that I would like to continue to play content I have bought on whatever (improved) hardware comes along in future.

Won't stop me buying new shiny games but will allow me to have a play on stuff I've bought previously.

Anyway this does sound like a PC and Steam really. Maybe I should stick with those. If it wasn't for those damn exclusives I would.

[mushashi]

Not quite sure what the point is?

That you're applying an expectation of a benefit of one business model (making money from selling you profitable hardware/OS/advertising) to another business model built around the razor/razorblade sales model of loss-leading hardware built to sell you profitable software, unconstricted by slavishly iterating on underlying hardware.

The nearest thing we've had to that in consoles is Nintendo and their 14+ year slavish devotion to the same basic PowerPC and ArtX/ATI hardware, which worked out so well for them in the long run, and even they chose to cut corners with the BC for cost reasons.

You might aswell ask for somebody to resurrect the 3DO idea while you are at it, as that was the closest thing to what you want, a standard hardware platform would help elimate the need to buy multiple consoles while allowing consumer choice of hardware manufacturer, quite elegant in some ways. People just couldn't stomach the $700 price tag of the hardware that resulted.

If you want a console, then you have to accept for it to work as a viable business that certain expectations should be left at the door or something positive from the console business model has to disappear too. Perpetual BC seems at odds to how consoles remain a good business idea as they are.

[TehStu]

That you're applying an expectation of a benefit of one business model (making money from selling you profitable hardware/OS/advertising) to another business model built around the razor/razorblade sales model of loss-leading hardware built to sell you profitable software, unconstricted by slavishly iterating on underlying hardware.

The nearest thing we've had to that in consoles is Nintendo and their 14+ year slavish devotion to the same basic PowerPC and ArtX/ATI hardware, which worked out so well for them in the long run, and even they chose to cut corners with the BC for cost reasons.

You might aswell ask for somebody to resurrect the 3DO idea while you are at it, as that was the closest thing to what you want, a standard hardware platform would help elimate the need to buy multiple consoles while allowing consumer choice of hardware manufacturer, quite elegant in some ways. People just couldn't stomach the $700 price tag of the hardware that resulted.

If you want a console, then you have to accept for it to work as a viable business that certain expectations should be left at the door or something positive from the console business model has to disappear too. Perpetual BC seems at odds to how consoles remain a good business idea as they are.

Kinell man, don't you think people would buy extra titles (likely digital, given the impulse nature of cheaper games) if some effort was put in to BC? Or diddle a bit of money out of people who think "sod it, I'll buy ME for 4 bucks to save having to fetch the disc"?

They don't have to do anything, but they've chosen to do something, and whether people engage with it in any meaningful way is partially up to Sony.

And in any case, we can put our fingers in our ears about "the olde model" all we want, but times have clearly changed, as have, arguably, expectations. Presumably, this is why these devices didn't necessarily cost $700, because they didn't actually pack the punch we expected. I don't know the numbers, but that we frequently talk of lowered graphical expectations reasonably implies they weren't the big loss leader that they have been previously.