Nintendo Wii U

[Smitty]

As for being aggressive, im not the one dropping in guffawing smileys and "fanboy tears". Discuss it properly else whats the point.

You find a laughing smiley aggressive? I'm expressing my bemusement at what you're saying.

I guffawed because you made out that I was boasting about my influence. I have literally said NOTHING about my influence on anything. You've pulled that of thin air.

Would you like to explain why you said that?

As for fanboy tears, you're aggressive insistence that my recollections and feelings were bullshit made me wonder if you were one of them, and besides I do generally find the desperate way in which Sega fans bang on about the Dreamcast quite hilarious. It's like, jesus, let it go already.

Anyway at worst that is sarcasm.

But hey instead of discussing it with me, why don't you just pull out the tried and tested ''OHHHHHHH SMITTY'S GOING MENTAL LINE' even though i'm clearly not.

Fucking lazy bullshit.

[angel]

Im not getting drawn into one of your things, a laughing smiley is dismissive of someones opinion, and "collecting fanboy tears" is playground trolling. Thats as far as im engaging with you.

[Yewone]

Well despite all the predictions over the premature death of the machine (and all the recent Ubi-shite business), the fact still remains that for me, as it stands, it still has way more interesting titles appearing this year compared to the 360/PS3... And that's even before we get into all the Nintendo Direct (and E3 stuff).

If it ends up that these are all I actually end up getting to play before the plug is pulled (which lets face it, just ain't gonna happen) then, along with the launch and eShop titles it will have been worth the asking price.

Obviously it's a shame Nintendo appear to have made such a monumental fuck up in terms of marketing the bloody thing.. but I really don't think the situation will end up as bad as some are making out (or would, I fear, like it to be).

Pretty sure I made an almost identical post about a month ago... Oops

[Bojangle]

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Seems Smitty hit Angel's weak spot for massive damage!

[angel]

Whats that, not enabling his bullshit?

[scottcr]

In X, you play a brave band of adventurers crawling about angel and Smitty searching for The Cast of Dreams or something

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Come on angel, since somebody mentioned the Dreamcast being a 'between gens console' (or at least that it was in the perception of a lot of people at the time), you've been acting like a bull in a red cloth factory.

[scottcr]

I never owned a Dreamcast, and I don't feel guilty about it

[Gorf King]

I think this is the problem with your original argument, Smits:

Just to be clear: I wasn't make a direct Dreamcast comparison, that would be silly. I don't think the writing is one the wall yet.

I was just pointing out there are some lessons to be learned from it, and the WiiU launching early and underpowered, with very powerful next gen consoles around the corner, reminds me a lot of the Dreamcast situation.

People were waiting for the PS2 to come out, it was that simple. We knew it was going to be powerful and have great support. At the time Dreamcast owners screamed themselves hoarse denying it, but it was obviously true. And history bore that out.

That definitely be a significant element in this. I know I probably won't be able to afford more than one console, and i'll want one with heavy third party support, and the power to see the generation through.

I would have to see what the PS4 and 720 are offering before i'd consider a WiiU.

You are suggesting here that there's a parallel not just because of perception, but fact. That the Dreamcast was underpowered, that it, unlike the PS2, didn't have the hardware grunt to see the gen through. That wasn't borne out by history at all - it wasn't the DC's lack of grunt that killed it, but public misperception (including yours, it seems), Sony's 'emotion engine'-style hype, and Sega's business fuckups and lack of reserves. This is what history tells us, and indeed it was clear to many even at the time that people falling for Sony's line about the crushing power of PS2 (that were repeated in magazines like Edge at the time apparently uncritically) were just being suckered by marketing hyperbole. And I think the fact that this was proven as hype that people fell for (and it was - the Dreamcast was an immensely capable machine on par in many ways with the PS2) was a factor in the derision thrown at Sony years later when they tried to pull the same guff with real-time weapon change et al.

I mean, you're right later when you say that much of the public bought into this and played a waiting game for PS2, saying the DC was a piece of inferior hardware. But at the time, they were just being conned, and that was obvious to many even then. I don't think that's what you'd like to argue is the similarity, as it suggests that gamers concerned about hardware power are being fed the old shtick again and are simply falling for it again - that the next MS and Sony machines won't have much, if any, of an edge over the WiiU, but since that's the perception it'll help kill the WiiU's chances.

Cos that part of the argument way back then really was guff: the DC was perfectly capable of staying the gen and hosted games every bit as technically impressive as PS2, and did so almost from launch. I don't think that situation is the same as now, incidentally, with what we think we know of what's coming, and I do think either or both Sony or MS will come up with significantly more powerful hardware than Nintendo. Which makes the original argument you advanced - comparing the two situations - even more flawed really.

For what it's worth, I think it's a bit of a sideshow anyway. I think the major factors contributing to poor take-up with the WiiU are lack of compelling titles (sure, it's early days, and that's often the case with launches, but there's no SM64, Zelda-type system seller either here or on the horizon), high price compared to previous Nintendo consoles, a depressed market in general, consumer confusion, and poor marketing. I don't think hardware comparisons with what may be coming, speculatively, from other companies next year, is really a defining factor at this stage. It may well come into play later when we get a better idea of the hype reality of what's displayed by MS and Sony, but right now it's the combination of the far more significant issues above that might slow down takeup of WiiU so much that 3rd party support bleeds away. I honestly don't think the hardware issue is anywhere near as significant. And when it was - which I do agree it was with the DC/PS2 fight - that wasn't really about the failure of the DC hardware, it was about the failure of Sega's marketing, and the success of Sony's; and it was also about the gullibility and willingness to be wooed by absurd hyperbole of many a console fan, without which may would have seen for themselves just how capable the DC was instead of writing it off prematurely because of what turned out to be groundless hype.

So if your comparison is valid, maybe beware.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

I never owned a Dreamcast either, but I had one at work so I've seen and played a lot of games on it. Personally I didn't like it much, far too many arcade ports / score attack stuff instead of games with a little more substance and meat on the bones.

[Cthulhu Steev]

Dreamcast gave me this:

Nothing else matters.

[Not Thread Owner]

I bought a Dreamcast three weeks before the GC came out (awesome timing). It may not have had many games, but it had some fucking awesome games. Even with the GC launch I made the time to work through some great games - Sonic Adventure, Shenmue 1&2, Crazy Taxi, MSR, Tokyo Highway Challenge, Seaman, THPS2, Soul Calibur, Chu Chu Rocket...

Calling the Wii U "the new Dreamcast" only makes the Wii U more desirable in my eyes

[squirtle]

Has anyone been following the Wii U specs thread over on GAF? Seems the thinking now is that it is somewhat more powerful than the PS360, but not massively so, rather than the kneejerk reactions that were first espoused.

[SMD]

I gave up when it turned out no one had any idea what they were looking at because the design was completely custom.

[Not Thread Owner]

It's more powerful than Luxemburg but less powerful than Trident.

[angel]

I think this is the problem with your original argument, Smits:

You are suggesting here that there's a parallel not just because of perception, but fact. That the Dreamcast was underpowered, that it, unlike the PS2, didn't have the hardware grunt to see the gen through. That wasn't borne out by history at all - it wasn't the DC's lack of grunt that killed it, but public misperception (including yours, it seems), Sony's 'emotion engine'-style hype, and Sega's business fuckups and lack of reserves. This is what history tells us, and indeed it was clear to many even at the time that people falling for Sony's line about the crushing power of PS2 (that were repeated in magazines like Edge at the time apparently uncritically) were just being suckered by marketing hyperbole. And I think the fact that this was proven as hype that people fell for (and it was - the Dreamcast was an immensely capable machine on par in many ways with the PS2) was a factor in the derision thrown at Sony years later when they tried to pull the same guff with real-time weapon change et al.

I mean, you're right later when you say that much of the public bought into this and played a waiting game for PS2, saying the DC was a piece of inferior hardware. But at the time, they were just being conned, and that was obvious to many even then. I don't think that's what you'd like to argue is the similarity, as it suggests that gamers concerned about hardware power are being fed the old shtick again and are simply falling for it again - that the next MS and Sony machines won't have much, if any, of an edge over the WiiU, but since that's the perception it'll help kill the WiiU's chances.

Cos that part of the argument way back then really was guff: the DC was perfectly capable of staying the gen and hosted games every bit as technically impressive as PS2, and did so almost from launch. I don't think that situation is the same as now, incidentally, with what we think we know of what's coming, and I do think either or both Sony or MS will come up with significantly more powerful hardware than Nintendo. Which makes the original argument you advanced - comparing the two situations - even more flawed really.

For what it's worth, I think it's a bit of a sideshow anyway. I think the major factors contributing to poor take-up with the WiiU are lack of compelling titles (sure, it's early days, and that's often the case with launches, but there's no SM64, Zelda-type system seller either here or on the horizon), high price compared to previous Nintendo consoles, a depressed market in general, consumer confusion, and poor marketing. I don't think hardware comparisons with what may be coming, speculatively, from other companies next year, is really a defining factor at this stage. It may well come into play later when we get a better idea of the hype reality of what's displayed by MS and Sony, but right now it's the combination of the far more significant issues above that might slow down takeup of WiiU so much that 3rd party support bleeds away. I honestly don't think the hardware issue is anywhere near as significant. And when it was - which I do agree it was with the DC/PS2 fight - that wasn't really about the failure of the DC hardware, it was about the failure of Sega's marketing, and the success of Sony's; and it was also about the gullibility and willingness to be wooed by absurd hyperbole of many a console fan, without which may would have seen for themselves just how capable the DC was instead of writing it off prematurely because of what turned out to be groundless hype.

So if your comparison is valid, maybe beware.

Well put. I also think he's almost arguing against himself. He was swayed by the Sony hype machine ten years ago, but doesn't want to learn the lessons. People were suckered in to expecting the CG of Squaresoft's The Bouncer as actual gameplay, then they actually got launch titles like Summoner, Tekken Tag, Wild Wild Racing and a horrible version of his avatar's souce, Unreal Tournament....(all horrible....google them)..it was underwhelming so say the least. Also at that point the DC had really kicked into gear and stuff like PSO, JSR were coming out and showing Sony's machine up.

[Smitty]

simply falling for it again - that the next MS and Sony machines won't have much, if any, of an edge over the WiiU

Good luck with that prediction.

Yes, and the Wii was just as powerful as the 360/PS3 wasn't it.

[Smitty]

were just being suckered by marketing hyperbole.

Nah. As I said, on its own merits, I wasn't that impressed by the stuff on the DC. Too much arcade stuff.

And it was the successor to the PS, which was enormously popular and successful. I like a lot of people felt the PS2 would have wider support and better games, as well as being more powerful. A lot of people waited because they loved the PS (it had shaken the whole industry up) and they wanted more of that.

DC fans like to pretend that everyone was 'suckered' by 'hype' when the truth is that a lot of people were making judgements such as the above. They do this because they're still sour about a console that was discontinued 11/12 years ago.

Frankly it's insulting that you can't accept that people made judgements beyond 'hype'.

Also I never even bought a PS2, not once, in it's whole existence. So i'm not exactly how I was suckered, but there you go.

[angel]

Good luck with that prediction.

Yes, and the Wii was just as powerful as the 360/PS3 wasn't it.

Trolling. Pure and simple. And he genuinely believes this sort of response is acceptable.

[Gorf King]

Good luck with that prediction.

Yes, and the Wii was just as powerful as the 360/PS3 wasn't it.

Smitty, I never made that prediction. In fact I made the opposite one.

Your second sentence is a non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with the post I made. Of course the Wii wasn't as powerful as the 360 or PS3. The DC, however, was about par with the PS2.

What's up, man? My post was correcting a fallacy about the DC's 'lack of power'. A bit obvious, but that's its only sin, I think. You seem to be tripping yourself up over and over to make some kind of point, to the extent that you're now not even following what is quite a simple post. Which was explaining that comparing the DC to the WiiU in terms of power relative to its forthcoming rivals is mistaken, because the WiiU really (probably) will be far less powerful than PS4, whereas the DC wasn't. (And also explaining my opinion that the hardware grunt issue isn't a deciding factor in this race at the moment anyway - that price, available titles, marketing etc are.) I'm not attempting to belittle anyone or anything, just pointing out that the argument is ill-founded.

[gizmo1990]

You're all getting far too worried guys. C'mon, a Nintendo in trouble is a *AWESOME Nintendo. Now that they 'have' to work their little bottoms off, I'm expecting some fantastic announcements. Chill out.

*I hope, obviously.

[Smitty]

Trolling. Pure and simple. And he genuinely believes this sort of response is acceptable.

I love how trolling is thrown around so much confetti nowadays. It's my opinion. I find it really quite funny that Gorf (and others) think that.

What is unacceptable about my response?

Of course I don't expect a response because you didn't explain how or why I had made claims about my 'influence'.

It's funny Angel, a lot of the time people pile in on you and start slagging you off (you're widely derided here) but i've never joint in with that and sometimes i've felt it's unfair. I've not had a bad word to say about you, despite how annoying I find you sometimes.

Maybe i've been wrong to stay quiet all these years, maybe I should join in with the next Angel kicking.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Where does this "Troubled Nintendo is awesome Nintendo" myth come from anyway? Last time "Troubled Nintendo" brought us the Wii, the worst console of the millenium.

[angel]

I love how trolling is thrown around so much confetti nowadays. It's my opinion. I find it really quite funny that Gorf thinks that.

What is unacceptable about my response?

Of course I don't expect a response because you didn't explain how or why I had made claims about my 'influence'.

It's funny Angel, a lot of the time people pile in on you and start slagging you off (you're widely derided here) but i've never joint in with that and sometimes i've felt it's unfair. I've not had a bad word to say about you, despite how annoying I find you sometimes.

Maybe i've been wrong to stay quiet all these years, maybe I should join in with the next Angel kicking.

I don't pile in on you either, I even sent you support last year and I always vote to "save" you when they run the polls on your bannings. I just find when you dismiss people's posts with the "lol" smiley it comes across as highly offensive and rude.

[Gorf King]

I find it really quite funny that Gorf (and others) think that.

I find it even funnier that you think that I think that.

[SMD]

Where does this "Troubled Nintendo is awesome Nintendo" myth come from anyway? Last time "Troubled Nintendo" brought us the Wii, the worst console of the millenium.

Thus Spake Zarathustra.

[Smitty]

Smitty, I never made that prediction. In fact I made the opposite one.

Your second sentence is a non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with the post I made. Of course the Wii wasn't as powerful as the 360 or PS3. The DC, however, was about par with the PS2.

Ok, perhaps I misread your post because that is the meaning I took from that part.

Re the DC power parity, people were after the PS2 for more reasons than power as stated above.

[MW_Jimmy]

And it was the successor to the PS, which was enormously popular and successful. I like a lot of people felt the PS2 would have wider support and better games, as well as being more powerful. A lot of people waited because they loved the PS (it had shaken the whole industry up) and they wanted more of that.

Well, those people were wrong because the Dreamcast had better games.

[Gorf King]

Re the DC power parity, people were after the PS2 for more reasons than power as stated above.

Indeed. So if you took the 'waiting for the console that has the (hardware) staying power for the next gen' out of your argument, it'd work. Because it wasn't true for the DC/PS2 gen, except for people who got suckered in by hype that turned out hollow. That's why I was explaining that this part of your argument - this comparison between the gens - was flawed. Because this time I think there really will be some sort of genuine performance gap. There wasn't back then.