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Smitty

Smitty

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Except history's shown that the Dreamcast wasn't left behind so much.

It was totally left behind. I bought a Dreamcast at one point. A week later I took it back.

There weren't enough games. There were all these rumblings about support going and we all knew the Dreamcast was that gen 1.5 machine. PS2 was next gen.

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Dandy_Sephy

Dandy_Sephy

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Nintendo does not have the output to deliver enough games on both home and handheld platforms.

I really don't think thats true. Even if they somehow ran out of internal staff, they have plenty of second party and third party jobbers they can supervise. You know, that thing they've done since the early 90s.

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Dandy_Sephy

Dandy_Sephy

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There were all these rumblings about support going and we all knew the Dreamcast was that gen 1.5 machine. PS2 was next gen.

When the DC was released Arcade games were still the cutting edge. The DC in everyway was that arcade hardware in the home. It was absolutely not a stop gap. The DC is every much the same gen as the PS2, it just came out much sooner. Much the same as the Xbox and GC being more powerful than the PS2 but they are the same generation despite coming later.

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Smitty

Smitty

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480p (i on pal) looks like ass on a LCD tv though..

Also..the Dreamcast wasnt underpowered, it was only slightly under PS2 levels..they had very similar ports of Half Life for example.

I disagree, but that's besides the point. People were waiting for the PS2. They were excited by it. It was the powerful successor to the Playstation.

If the hardcore and mass market (the COD gamer rather than the Wii market casual) weren't excited and on board with the Wii that will affect their interest in its successor.

The WiiU is competing against expectations of the next gen.

When we see what the new consoles over the next few months, kids that wanted a WiiU this Christmas will change to wanting a 720/PS4. Their mates will be talking about it.

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Smitty

Smitty

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It was absolutely not a stop gap.

It felt like a stopgap. All the talk was of it being a stopgap.

I remember the buzz in magazines, at school and so on.

Seeing PS2 footage dismissed all thoughts of the Dreamcast from one's mind. I remember watching that MGS2 thing back in '99.

After seeing that I was thinking excitedly about what arcade style games I could play.

What if the same thing is happening here, and you've got people waiting for something better?

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SMD

SMD

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It was totally left behind. I bought a Dreamcast at one point. A week later I took it back.

There weren't enough games. There were all these rumblings about support going and we all knew the Dreamcast was that gen 1.5 machine. PS2 was next gen.

I never had a Dreamcast, I was a PC Gamer exclusively from 99 to 2002 but in general, the Dreamcast did well outside of Europe.

The Dreamcast still has great graphics today and the games were varied and creative. A non-fucked up Sega would've managed to carry on and compete with the PS2, certainly offering a broader depth than the Xbox did to its library.

This gen 1.5 nonsense is weird, it seems like a retroactive way of putting down the Wii.

The PS2 promised loads that it didn't deliver, like the Final Fantasy emotion render. But people bought it.

It felt like a stopgap. All the talk was of it being a stopgap.

I remember the buzz in magazines, at school and so on.

Seeing PS2 footage dismissed all thoughts of the Dreamcast from one's mind. I remember watching that MGS2 thing back in '99.

After seeing that I was thinking excitedly about what arcade style games I could play.

What if the same thing is happening here, and you've got people waiting for something better?

Well hopefully Nintendo will be better equipped than Sega to hold out. Because I don't know about you but a market with just two consoles seems like a terrible prospect for me, especially two consoles that do very little to differentiate between each other.

If anything, I think the market could do with one more manufacturer, to keep the others and third parties honest.

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TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap

TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap

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Smitty is right about the Dreamcast, I remember exactly the same. At the time I had a Nintendo 64 but wasn't a very fanatical gamer (console or otherwise). I was interested in something new though, and I thought the Dreamcast looked pretty cool. But gamer friends and shop assistants all said the PS2 would completely blow it away, and told me it would be better to wait for that. Eventually we got a Dreamcast in the office and it didn't have many games that appealed to me (although Soul Calibur was stunningly beautiful at the time) so I was glad I never bought one. I snapped up a PS2 a few months after release instead and never looked back.

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angel

angel

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I disagree, but that's besides the point. People were waiting for the PS2. They were excited by it. It was the powerful successor to the Playstation.

If the hardcore and mass market (the COD gamer rather than the Wii market casual) weren't excited and on board with the Wii that will affect their interest in its successor.

The WiiU is competing against expectations of the next gen.

When we see what the new consoles over the next few months, kids that wanted a WiiU this Christmas will change to wanting a 720/PS4. Their mates will be talking about it.

pure anecdotal evidence and history-rewriting. The PS2 was useless for a while until GTA kicked it into gear...most games were crap, Ridge Racer 5 (lacklustre), Onimusha (ps1 port essentially, fixed camera), it didnt do that well at all in the first year until GTA and MGS2 started helping it along. I worked in GAME at the time so I saw a lot of this.

Oh and the DC was a powerful bit of kit, it was pure sony marketing bullshit and prerendered crap like the bouncer that killed it....actual PS2 games at the time were just about the same level as the DC. If both machines carried along on the same way, they'd both have been pushed and we'd have seen some great DC stuff.

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angel

angel

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Smitty is 100% not right about the DC, its all based on anecdotal evidence..."felt like" a stop gap. A victim of the infamous Gary Penn quote most likely. The Dreamcast was fucking awesome. Sega just couldnt market for shit.

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Dandy_Sephy

Dandy_Sephy

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It felt like a stopgap. All the talk was of it being a stopgap.

I remember the buzz in magazines, at school and so on.

Seeing PS2 footage dismissed all thoughts of the Dreamcast from one's mind. I remember watching that MGS2 thing back in '99.

Sega had burnt a lot of their bridges over Mega CD, 32X and Saturn, certainly outside of Japan. In Japan Sega had at least done well enough to support a machine while putting out the occasional home specific title, they had been doing that since the Mega Drive launched. So people were cautious over the DC, and developers were seriously concerned. Capcom released loads of DC games for example, but they were all ports of CPS2 games or games developed primarily for Arcade and easy ports. Compare to their ps2 output and then their GC output.

Sony did an excellent marketing job, using Sega's own weaknesses, the DVD support and the runaway smash that was Playstation. In truth, most of the marketing was done by out of context quotes and the press rather than Sony themselves. Sega didn't have the resources or the marketing to fight back, relying on trying to bundle cheap nasty dvd players with the DC for almost the same price as a PS2.

Nintendo's problem is that they are coming off the back of a overly successful console that sold itself purely on a gimmick rather than the superb third party support that the Nes,Snes, and PS1+2 had. Nintendo's own confusion of the difference between the Wii and Wii U has simply amplified that problem.

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Super Craig

Super Craig

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If anything, I think the market could do with one more manufacturer, to keep the others and third parties honest.

Most third parties struggled to support three fairly similar consoles last gen, so I'm not sure that adding a fourth would work now. The differences between the consoles are only increasing.

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angel

angel

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The Dreamcast was capable enough but in the perception of people at the time it was a stop-gap. Everybody was hyped for the PS2 and thought little more of the Dreamcast at the time than some tide-over console between two 'proper' generations.

You speak for everyone at the time? So on that timing..was the 360 a stop gap for the PS3?

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TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap

TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap

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You speak for everyone at the time? So on that timing..was the 360 a stop gap for the PS3?

Well, yeah, a lot of people indeed predicted doom for the 360 because it would suffer from the same 'stop gap' image of the Dreamcast. Released too soon, a big behemoth coming up, the next Playstation using Bluray and being much more powerful. If you dig back in the pre-release threads of the 360, the comparison to the Dreamcast was often made.

Which is pretty much what I said earlier in this thread.:rolleyes:

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SMD

SMD

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Most third parties struggled to support three fairly similar consoles last gen, so I'm not sure that adding a fourth would work now. The differences between the consoles are only increasing.

They wouldn't have to. It'd probably relieve the pressure on third parties trying to make sure they support all the machines and it'd give smaller devs a greater chance of making it on at least one platform.

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angel

angel

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Well, yeah, a lot of people indeed predicted doom for the 360 because it would suffer from the same 'stop gap' image of the Dreamcast. Released to soon, a big behemoth coming up, the next Playstation using Bluray and being much more powerful. If you dig back in the pre-release threads of the 360, the comparison to the Dreamcast was often made.

Which is pretty much what I said earlier in this thread. :rolleyes:

Youre mental. None of that is true.

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angel

angel

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As much as I love my ps2, not a single title on it is as evocative to me as Phantasy Star Online.

Think again, Bozo.

http://www.rllmukfor..._xbox dreamcast

"Too soon" and "a snack between Playstations" on the first page. Dreamcast mentioned several times, with a big comparison on page 13. Enjoy reading.

"a snack between playstations" is the Gary Penn quote i mentioned. It was marketing bullshit and hype, smoke and mirrors, and you fell for it.

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Super Craig

Super Craig

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They wouldn't have to. It'd probably relieve the pressure on third parties trying to make sure they support all the machines and it'd give smaller devs a greater chance of making it on at least one platform.

I don't follow your logic. As it stands right now, Nintendo are the only platform holder who could sustain a platform with only their own software. And even they want third-party support, because it means more money for them. If Microsoft or Sony lost the majority of third-party support then I think they'd be fucked. I don't think Halo and Gran Turismo and co. would be enough unless they start being sensible with profits on hardware.

Sensible smaller developers are going to want to work on the console with the most users.

Youre mental. None of that is true.

He's right. $600 saved the 360.

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Red Alignment

Red Alignment

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I agree with Angel and Nap. The DC was definitely not a between-generation console like the Atari Jaguar. It was definitely capable against the PS2. However, the PS2 hype and entrenched (mis)perception that DC would soon be epically under-powered just meant the DC had no chance, never mind all the other problems Sega faced with their brand image and lack of developer support. A real shame, to be honest: and I say that as someone who never owned a Sega console post Mega Drive.

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kensei

kensei

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I remain to be convinced the gap this gen is going to be as astronomical as it was before, HD was such a jump. Is a next Gen Ni No Kuni going to look like a leap? Even for realistic graphics stuff there are games that are still going to stand up. Heavy Rain for instance.

There'll be a jump, it'll be noticeable. Some new things will be possible. But will Zelda or Metroid or Fzero HD look as far behind as the Wii versions compared to this gen? Don't see it.

Iwata will claim otherwise, but there is a price cut pre Orbis coming.

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