Star Wars: The Force Awakens

[Chow]

I was going to post that earlier, with the same bloody gif as well. But if it's true, and they've got Donnie Yen as a Jedi for Episode 8, then surely Episode 9 is just going to be sunshine and rainbows. He's going to wipe the floor with all the enemies in Episode 8 by himself.

I hope to see plenty of this:

And this:

And some of this:

With a dash of this:

And a sprinking of this:

[Nespresso]

No lightsaber needed..

From what is that?

Looks a bit CGI even.

[Sponge]

Surely that really hurts his own head when he lands? Though admittedly probably not as much as the other guys.

[MDY]

It's from a film called Flashpoint.. It's not CGI

They show it from another angle too, they guys head breaks the corner off the table as he gets slammed..

There's definitely some full contact stuff in the stunt work - a few punches are shown in slow motion and you can see they impact..

[makkuwata]

EW are saying no new trailer or clips this week. People are going to riot!

[NecroMorrius]

But you'll get a World of Warcraft trailer instead, which is just as good! ...Right?

[Jumble Jumble]

The Donnie Yen thing is discouraging. It reminds me of when they hired Ray Park for Ep1, and the lightsaber "fights" turned out to be dancing contests.

[Chow]

The Donnie Yen thing is discouraging. It reminds me of when they hired Ray Park for Ep1, and the lightsaber "fights" turned out to be dancing contests.

Yeah, but if they've got Donnie Yen in Episode 8 and Iko Uwais & Co doing the choreography (I believe they're on board for Episode 7) then it might be time to switch the hype machine to...

[squirtle]

Yeah, but... Jedi fights in the original trilogy are not about that kind of shit. That smacks of the prequel style of Jedi fights which were stupid. The fights need to be people hacking at each other with swords of light. Not jumping around and looking cool.

[MDY]

It depends.. they can still be visually interesting as well as staying realistic.. martial arts films and choreography has trended back towards the more brutal and realistic over the last decade or so anyway..

The OT had grounded fights by necessity - Obi Wan and Vader were both a bit old for flashy moves and Luke was initially inexperienced.. but later went on to incorporate flips, turns and other flashier stuff in his fighting..

The prequel fights took it too much the other way and were too much cgi and twirling the blades around.. there's a good middle ground to be had where we have expert use of the sabers by force users in their prime but it doesn't look too cartoony..

[Ran]

I agree but also feel, the fights in the original are so much better because they do stuff much more compelling than just have two daft twats hit each other with sticks. The Phantom Menace fight at least has the climactic last fight echo the originals Vader kills Obi-wan scene. (but its not close to being as significant to Obi-wan as it is to Luke witnessing a mentor being killed).

For the most part the rest of the prequel trilogies sword fights you imagine all the script/synopsis read was "Put a cool looking fight scene in here". They don't add anything to character development. They show people fighting each other for the most basic of reasons i.e. he's a goodie and he's a baddie.

[TehStu]

I see what you're saying, and I'd liken the Matrix and its sequels to that. As much as I love those films, the fighting in 2 and 3 is absolutely dancing. I think you can still do frentic, force-enhanced fighting without it looking like dancing, though. And while we retcon the original to say "yeah but he's an inexperienced kid versus an old fart on motorized legs", we've no idea how he might have played out the early fights as they were limited by the special effects. Personally, with more overt force powers on display, as is reasonable for Jedi at their peak, I think the prequel fights were fine in concept, just executed poorly.

[squirtle]

But i didn't think there were any force users in their prime? If there were, where were they during the original films?

[Jumble Jumble]

In nappies I guess.

[squirtle]

Okay... And who was around to train these younglings...?

[Jumble Jumble]

The midichlorians of course. Don't you know anything?

[TehStu]

But i didn't think there were any force users in their prime? If there were, where were they during the original films?

Not sure I understand the question. They're all dead* in the original trilogy. That's why I think the point is reasonable. Yes, the original brief was "fight like these things weigh a lot", and yes, changing that for the prequels pissed people off. As I said though, it's not a 12-parsecs kessel run fudge to say that, in the prequels, their fighting could be enchanced with the force. My second cheesy analogy for the day would be finally getting to see adult wizards duel in Harry Potter, because until that point all you'd seen is kids farting around with levitating feathers and opening locks.

I don't think every idea in the prequels was shite, but we tend to tar the lot accordingly.

*insofar as we're aware

[kensei]

Duel of the Fates was everything you wanted in a lightsaber fight. Twin blades! Force jumps! Kicks! Speed! Sith kicking arse! That soundtrack! It felt like it was upped from the OT, which is how it should have been.

Plus it was in keeping with the times, anything more sedate would have got heavy criticism vs The Matrix.

It's the later films where they went too far. The climatic Obi Wan vs Anakin fight should have been nasty, two people that have practiced together for twenty years and are really, really pissed. No room for perfect technique. Instead you have stuff like the lightsabers going past each other and not touching, which just feels stupid.

And Yoda. Yoda should never have done lightsabering, unless it is one perfect tactical stroke or something similar.

[rubberducker]

TPM end duel is the best thing about the film.

But as you say the rest of the prequel's fights lacked any drama. They were just choreographed fireworks displays that lacked any weight at all.

[Nick R]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having Jedi involved in elaborately-choreographed fights, full of spectacular gravity-defying wire-fu tricks and lightsabers swinging in wide circles. I agree that slow, methodical duels based around looking for an opening before going for a quick, precise attack burst can be exciting and entertaining too, and if you're someone who places a lot of value in associating the Jedi with samurai (or at least, screen portrayals of samurai), that's probably the fighting style that you think best represents them.

But I don't really mind what style of fighting is used. Any style of fight scene can be exciting to me, as long as I'm invested in the stakes, and as long as the scenes contain memorable actions that feel specific to the characters involved. There's nothing stopping a Jedi knight from being involved in a fight in as cramped a space as the cell fight at the start of The Raid 2, a mad scramble to Force-attract whatever weapon is to hand!

I have to admit, sometimes I don't even mind if the attacks in fight scenes don't feel particularly dangerous: as in TehStu's Matrix sequels example, sometimes I can enjoy a fight because the spectacle of the dance is appealing in itself. However, I will make two recommendations about making prequel-style Jedi fights feel dangerous:

1) By all means have the lightsabers swinging in wide arcs... but at least make it look like they're swinging towards their opponent instead of just doing a pretty flourish!

2) if you're going to have Jedi perform gravity-defying acrobatics, you have to make sure that it's not too obvious to the audience when a leaping somersault would leave one of the fighters completely open to attack!

[Matt Defis]

The lightsaber fights done by blur studios have been great especially how they show the difference in techniques between the Jedi and Sith.

[Chow]

Yeah, but... Jedi fights in the original trilogy are not about that kind of shit. That smacks of the prequel style of Jedi fights which were stupid. The fights need to be people hacking at each other with swords of light. Not jumping around and looking cool.

[Jumble Jumble]

Sr I think that would be a rubbish lightsaber fight. Imagine the sound for it to see what I mean. Would sound like some bedroom attempt at dubstep.

[Sponge]

Ah that fight scene (admittedly taken out of context) is fucking dull. Two blokes swooshing and twirling their sticks/knife around in an impossible-if-it-wasn't-choreographed dance. Replace the stick and knife with lightsabers and you pretty much have a prequel fight scene.

[Tourist]

Yep, totally boring. They should go back to Kurosawa and have people just circling each other waiting for an opening before one strike settles it. (See also The Buried Giant for some fantastic written versions of what I am talking about.)

[K]

I think the choreography of the fights in the prequels is less important than the fact that you don’t have any emotional involvement with the characters, and there’s nothing at stake. I mean, the fight at the end of Revenge of the Sith takes place because Anakin had a dream and became evil, and Obi-Wan wants to stop him because he’s one of the goodies. That’s it; there’s no emotional drive behind it. There’s no real sense of dire consequences if Obi-Wan loses. I can’t remember who said it – either Chris McQuarrie or Andy Diggle – but some scriptwriter said that action scenes should be constructed as tense scenes where the tension is resolved through action.

If you actually care about the characters and the situation, you could have a fight consisting of an old geezer vaguely poking a stick at the Green Cross Code man and everyone would love it.

[Sponge]

Yep, totally boring. They should go back to Kurosawa and have people just circling each other waiting for an opening before one strike settles it. (See also The Buried Giant for some fantastic written versions of what I am talking about.)

That's the way it should be with LASER SWORDS. One light touch has your arm off, so why they go twirling and spinning their limbs around all over the place seems pretty stupid. Surprised more of them don't cause self inflicted amputations too.

[Alex W.]

Maybe some of the situations in the films could have been resolved by means other than lightsabre battles, too. You got 2 actual duels in the original trilogy, whereas every prequel ended with one, and often had two or three little ones on the way. Would it have killed them to do a dogfight or something?

[NecroMorrius]

I'd like to see a mix of styles. Zweihander Jedi, ninja Jedi, swashbuckling Jedi etc.

[squirtle]

Maybe some of the situations in the films could have been resolved by means other than lightsabre battles, too. You got 2 actual duels in the original trilogy, whereas every prequel ended with one, and often had two or three little ones on the way. Would it have killed them to do a dogfight or something?

Three. Obi v Vader, Luke v Vader x2.