Star Wars: The Force Awakens

[BitterToad]

I kinda get your point but a good Star Wars film can be made with the building blocks you mentioned. Let's say someone with an eye for storytelling and a good action set piece comes in and makes a top quality rollicking ride that happens to have Luke, Leia and Han in it. In your eyes this would be an irritating retread whereas the rest of us would just see a good film.

It's like saying you can't make anything good in Minecraft because it's all just the same blocks. All it takes is a little imagination which hopefully J.J can provide.

[b00dles]

Interesting point about anakins ghost but i actually thought that was him in 'old man' clothes like obi wan rather than it being a jedi outfit. Surely when luke shows up at jabbas palace to get Han etc, despite using a jedi mind trick everyone would have thought 'oh shit, he's a jedi' because he's in a hooded robe exactly like the jedis in the prequel.

Smitty is right though, they're pure fan service by committee, if you think about them objectively for a minute they're just really weak.

Also there's some shameful "we can turn this bit into a game" sections in the prequels if you ask me. Aside from obvious pod racer which i know is meant to show anakins piloting skill (although having a bit where he does the Kessel run would have shown that better and been more clever for the fans) but the bit in the droid factory for instance even looks like a platformer.

[TehStu]

It's really odd that even an obsessive Star Wars fan doesn't really understand the creative thoughts behind the stuff he venerates. My understanding is that what you see in the original films is very much deliberate - they were told the lightsabres were heavy and that they needed to fight in a broadsword style. That's why the fights are so slow, weighty and deliberate.

Come the sequels Lucas apparently decided the sabres were now as light as air, force users were ninjas or whatever and those were the instructions that went to the choreographers. I imagine the whole reason Lucas made this change is because he was thinking of what fans had been fantasising about, publically, for 20 years - crazy mad acrobatic eXXXXtreme saber battles, yo! That's what the fans want. Not necessairly because it was part of his creative vision, like it was a spontanteous idea, but because he and the prequels are responding to the feverish cult around the original films. They have to deliver a product.

The prequels are weighed down by the sheer weight of the OT and being in the hands of someone who is not prepared to put in a lot of effort, to get other creatives on board (who might say no), who is not passionate about film anymore and so on they were just doomed.

But going back to the fights themselves and the big differences between them i've rarely seen anyone say that the think anything in the prequels, for all their complex choreography and visual razzle-dazzle, contain even a fraction of the drama and impact of the fights in the originals. Again, Plinkett makes this point very well. More isn't necessarily better. You can imitate something without thinking about it, and it will show.

Look, I do understand, OK? Don't peer down your nose at me every time we debate something. Regardless of the intended "weight" of the blade, we are watching two older people and someone without training. He went completely over the top for fights in the prequels, horribly scripting it all (a la Matrix sequel fights), but there parts to enjoy, particularly certain sequences of duel of the fates. And you're right, nothing matches the drama of the few fights we see in the originals. I think the 90 seconds or so of Vader looking for Luke through Luke having cut Vader's hand off are almost certainly, for me, my favourite scene of any film, ever. There wasn't a hint of any such drama in the prequels.

[Sponge]

Yeah you can criticise the jedi uniform as stupid, and it is, but the majority of jedis in the OT wore them so it's not a complete construct of the prequels. Kenobi, Anakin's ghost and Luke when he wanted to be give the impression he was a full jedi.

As for ninja Jedi, have you forgotten Luke's miraculous jumps in Empire when he's a total novice and again in Jedi when he's a bit more trained and in control? The dude practically flies with little effort.

[Smitty]

Ultimately it shows that dramatic weight informs the true impact of a fight on you, not the technical aspects of the fight. What is the dramatic context? What is the emotional context?

All rather obvious points, but still.

[Sponge]

And the pod race is no more made for game than the Endor speeder bike chase is.

[TehStu]

Ultimately it shows that dramatic weight informs the true impact of a fight on you, not the technical aspects of the fight. What is the dramatic context? What is the emotional context?

All rather obvious points, but still.

Yes, I know. However, for those rather into this whole thing, it was fun to see experts, in their prime, go at it. With the same acknowledged lack of drama, I also enjoyed seeing adult wizards go at it in Harry Potter 5 and 6 (I think it was).

[makkuwata]

And the pod race is no more made for game than the Endor speeder bike chase is.

He was a 6 year old kid who designed and built his own F1 hover car as a slave. And he portrayed no evidence of being able to accomplish such a task, nevermind being able to pilot it.

His heir spent a good 14 more years farming water. Ugh.

[Smitty]

And the pod race is no more made for game than the Endor speeder bike chase is.

The pod race is surely there because of the Endor speeder bike chase.

''There was a bit that was really fast and people loved that bit, lets have another bit where its really fast and we can go home for the night now guys great job great job''

[makkuwata]

Nah, it's there cause Lucas is a speed/car nut. Nothing to do with Star Wars. Certainly doesn't add anything.

[Jumble Jumble]

I guess the robes could just be old man civvies. But that would be being very charitable. I mean, it's the exact same outfit. A uniform really.

[TehStu]

He was a 6 year kid who designed and built his own F1 hover car as a slave. And he portrayed no evidence of being able to accomplish such a task, nevermind being able to pilot it.

His heir spent a good 14 more years farming water. Ugh.

9? A force sensitive mechanic. Although, where he got the parts from is anyone's guess. I'd say 3PO is also an example of his building skills, but given there's loads of those things around, it feels more like a kit he put together.

I guess the robes could just be old man civvies. But that would be being very charitable. I mean, it's the exact same outfit. A uniform really.

Also, would wearing Jedi robes in a backwater* place like Tatooine be that obvious? Watto had to ask, after QGJ attempts a mind trick.

*the galaxy's most visited backwater planet.

[makkuwata]

I guess the robes could just be old man civvies. But that would be being very charitable. I mean, it's the exact same outfit. A uniform really.

I've always taken it as a Medieval Knight wears shining armour, a Jedi Knight wears the brown robes. It's iconic in both cases. I think it's misdirected anger against greater problems with the prequels.

[makkuwata]

9? A force sensitive mechanic. Although, where he got the parts from is anyone's guess. I'd say 3PO is also an example of his building skills, but given there's loads of those things around, it feels more like a kit he put together.

9 then. And he put together a kit. And he made 3PO. That reads as if it's trying to be a defence but it's more a helpful clarification of how ludicrous it is.

[TehStu]

I honestly don't know what an apparently powerful, force sensitive 9 year old is supposed to be capable of, to be honest. Don't get many of those to the pound.

[Smitty]

I really loathe universe-shrinking stuff like Anakin building C3PO.

The galaxy should feel unbelievably vast.

[TehStu]

Yeah, that was like one of those painful original film references you fairly consistently come across in older EU novels. And R2. Neither of those having involvement in the prequels added anything.

[makkuwata]

I honestly don't know what an apparently powerful, force sensitive 9 year old is supposed to be capable of, to be honest. Don't get many of those to the pound.

But the apparently powerful, force sensitive 20 year old sat around farming for a couple of decades. That's the established lore. We then look at Anakin and he's an immature, feeble mommy's boy. Which is fine. He's nine. But nothing in that movie demonstrated he was special beyond the arbitrary examples of his prowess.

[TehStu]

But the apparently powerful, force sensitive 20 year old sat around farming for a couple of decades. That's the established lore. We then look at Anakin and he's an immature, feeble mommy's boy. Which is fine. He's nine. But nothing in that movie demonstrated he was special beyond the arbitrary examples of his prowess.

Well, ostensibly the chosen one, perhaps the manifestation of his force sensitivity is more pronounced. I agree it isn't shown well, though.

[Smitty]

But the apparently powerful, force sensitive 20 year old sat around farming for a couple of decades. That's the established lore. We then look at Anakin and he's an immature, feeble mommy's boy. Which is fine. He's nine. But nothing in that movie demonstrated he was special beyond the arbitrary examples of his prowess.

Quite. And why does his power (untrained and unfocused) manifest itself as, um, being a good engineer? Why in his short and unpleasant existence as a slave didn't he experience some emotional turmoil where his apparently huge powers manifested in some sort of spontaneous display of force (ala Magneto at the beginning of X-Men 1) that could have helped to free them from that slavery?

The classic example you get from films where people have psychic powers is that they are threatened or something emotionally intense is happening and, unable to control their nascent power, it explodes out of them in an unpredictable fashion. I know that's a bit different maybe from the force but it just doesn't really make sense to me why this manifests as 'good engineering skills'.

Also, whatever mental and physical dexterity you have (force assisted or not), don't you need specialist knowledge to be an engineer? Where did Anakin learn all this engineering stuff? Is he not working as a slave?

I dunno. Like everything else in the prequels it just feels convenient and the product of no real care or attention.

''Will this do?''

[makkuwata]

Well, ostensibly the chosen one, perhaps the manifestation of his force sensitivity is more pronounced. I agree it isn't shown well, though.

Look at you trying to avoid saying the dirty word.

He was justified as being able to do all that because of the M word. The biggest mistake of the whole trilogy.

[TehStu]

I can't spell it, which is probably just as well.

Why would force sensitivity manifest as engineering? I didn't mean to imply that specifically, but the EU (which may or may not have predated TPM - but I'm going to say predated, as there are an awful lot of novels) suggests that untrained force sensitivity leads to being slightly better than other people at certain things.

Luke was a pretty good pilot, right?

[makkuwata]

Luke had great reflexes and perception. It's on the right side of plausible fantasy from constructing complex machinery before you have a complete vocabulary.

[Sponge]

The pod race is surely there because of the Endor speeder bike chase.

''There was a bit that was really fast and people loved that bit, lets have another bit where its really fast and we can go home for the night now guys great job great job''

Come on, a lot of the criticism is completely justified, but an exciting and fast moving chase/race is a pretty staple scene for an action film.

[Smitty]

I can't spell it, which is probably just as well.

Why would force sensitivity manifest as engineering? I didn't mean to imply that specifically, but the EU (which may or may not have predated TPM - but I'm going to say predated, as there are an awful lot of novels) suggests that untrained force sensitivity leads to being slightly better than other people at certain things.

Luke was a pretty good pilot, right?

But piloting is like this physical thing, an interaction between the pilot, the vehicle, the space around it.....that seems like something where force power would manifest itself. A supernatural awareness of the surroundings, being in tune with your body and the ship.

It's physical, it's about mental concentration, it's about skill....it immediately fits in at least conceptually in a way that engineer doesn't at all.

Now I am talking about Star Wars like any old grognard. It's irresistible.

[Fury4k]

Remember young Anakin Solo's natural ability with technology in the Corelian trilogy? And that was well before the prequels.

A lot of stuff in the prequels to me just seems like underdeveloped ideas from a first draft. There are plenty of good ideas there under the surface but they're almost completely hidden by stuff that should never have made it to the screen.

[TehStu]

An increased affinity for how things work.

I dunno, he "works" in a ship garage of some sort, it's not completely implausible, just poorly demonstrated through actual dialog (like most things in the films).

[Fury4k]

Also it's a long established thing in the eu at least that jedi build their own lightsabers through a meditative technique as part of their training.

[makkuwata]

I understand this whole debate is dumb as hell, and I hope all involved know it's dumb as hell. I just love that the new movies allow us this geeky gladiatorial sport.

[JohnC]

I don't mind Anakin being able to build machines. I seem to remember him being around that stuff an awful lot and had easy access to junk parts. It happens in real life that kids in that kind of environment can be very good with machines at an early age, tinkering with engines or whatever. I know some personally. Sure, he is at more advanced stuff than fixing a tractor, but the more advanced stuff is a normal everyday thing in their world, it just seems extra fancy to us as we are nowhere near that.