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Looking back at the Wiis Launch and comparing with Wii U


Ketchup
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You might have his back, but I still don't get this 'point', so instead of being a smart arse, why don't you try and explain?

His point is that your relative level of maturity or adulthood mean very little when you're playing videogames, whether they're full of Space Marines or colourful plant men.

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You might have his back, but I still don't get this 'point', so instead of being a smart arse, why don't you try and explain?

Whoa, steady on - this is a friendly debate so no need for tantrums fella.

His point (I hope, or else I'm barking up the wrong tree in a truly spectacular way) was related to your 'growing out of Nintendo' comment - which implies that Nintendo produces games which are somehow only of interest to, for want of a better phrase, kids and that everyone will 'grow' out of them. His point, was that CoD, or Halo, or FIFA, or whatever are no more 'grown up' than Mario, They are all just videogames. It's not more 'mature' to score a virtual goal or to shoot virtual soldiers than it is to jump on virtual mushrooms or purchase virtual furniture. His point was that Mario offers just as much to the 'advanced' gamer as it does to the 'novice' one. His point was that not being drawn to specific titles is absolutely a right anyone has, but that summarily dismissing the entire output of one company as diverse as Nintendo on the basis of being too 'grown up' for it is a sad state of affairs.

Did I do good master?

EDIT: What Ersatz said lol

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Pre Wii launch there wasn't a lot of hype for Twilight Princess, people were getting a little tired of the format and most of the posts were about "why don't I just get this on Gamecube" and comments about how the swings were just replacing buttons which was pointless because I already have my entirely arbitrary control method for swinging a sword here and it's called pressing the 'A' button, thank you very much.

That's not my recollection at all. Expectations were really high for a new Zelda returning to the style of Ocarina after Wind Waker divided fans.

I pretty much bought the Wii for it because I wanted the best version with all the new fangled controls.

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His point is that your relative level of maturity or adulthood mean very little when you're playing videogames, whether they're full of Space Marines or colourful plant men.

Well that's quite clearly bollocks. As I've got older my tastes have definitely changed. I'm guessing that's through a combination of my own feelings and the way the industry has changed.

It's besides the point though really, as my point was that this isn't a very inspiring launch line-up from Nintendo. I've raised points why, but they've been masterfully side-stepped by the NDF, who'd rather focus on an incidental aspect of what I was saying.

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Erm, loads of people complained about the PS3 and 360 launch line-ups when they came out.

But the 360 (not the PS3 becaue it was too expensive) still sold out overnight on launch depsite this lacklustre opening. This is why I don't see this as much of an issue, really.

I mean, are we expecting genre defining games from the launch of the PS4 and 720 as well?

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Well that's quite clearly bollocks. As I've got older my tastes have definitely changed. I'm guessing that's through a combination of my own feelings and the way the industry has changed.

Tastes change, yes - but that's all it is. It's no more to do with "growing up" than me preferring Toffee Crisps to Yorkies this year - the insinuation that you've put away childish thing is what's been challenged here. The counterpoint (which I'm not necessarily directing at you) is that if you've stopped playing cartoonish games, regardless of actual game content that it's more of an indication of lack of maturity.

As I said, I'm not saying that applies to you, but it's often seen in the "Nintendo is for kids" argument.

Ultimately, you may have just pushed a button accidentally when you used the term 'grown up'.

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But the 360 (not the PS3 becaue it was too expensive) still sold out overnight on launch depsite this lacklustre opening. This is why I don't see this as much of an issue, really.

I mean, are we expecting genre defining games from the launch of the PS4 and 720 as well?

The Gamecube and the Wii also sold out at launch, I don't think launch day sales tell you much, other than that there is always a percentage of gamers that must have the new gadget and now.

Genre defining is one way of viewing it, but much like Wii Sports was to the Wii they need something out the box that sells it based on the controller. The screen controller is seen as the thing to sell the Wii U. I personally don't think that will be the craze/selling point waggle was at the time.

EDIT: To be honest most launch line-ups get hyped to fuck pre-launch but turn out to be shit.

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As Farley said, a Pilotwings, F-Zero, Wave Race, SM64, whatever, would be good, but as it stands it's looking like a pretty weak launch.

And as I said, bar Pilotwings, all those games had sequels on the Gamecube, Nintendo's worst selling home console ever, so why do you think these games would suddenly create an upswell in sales when it didn't happen before?
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And as I said, bar Pilotwings, all those games had sequels on the Gamecube, Nintendo's worst selling home console ever, so why do you think these games would suddenly create an upswell in sales when it didn't happen before?

He did put 'a' in front, indicating a game of similar quality, not necessarily those games themselves. Sequels is part of the problem I think.

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He did put 'a' in front, indicating a game of similar quality, not necessarily those games themselves. Sequels is part of the problem I think.

Ok, has Kid Icarus ignited the 3DS sales, or was that down to Mario Kart and Super Mario 3D land (or possibly the price drop...)
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I think Nintendo set themselves a high benck mark in their previous era's (8 to 64 bit) and have not quite been able to recapture that as consistenly since.

Well Wii is their most successful console to date and hosts the best selling games of all time with the likes of Wii Sports, Wii Fit and Mario Kart. Mario Galaxy, Zelda, and the Metroid games were well received by critics and fans, and their exclusive JPN RPGS are considered to be amongst the best around.

The problem when comparing them now to the SNES days is the lack of decent third party support compared to PS3 and Xbox 360. A lot of people's favourite stuff back then was from Square, Capcom, Konami - who were also producing some of their best work at that point.

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He did put 'a' in front, indicating a game of similar quality, not necessarily those games themselves. Sequels is part of the problem I think.

Yeah, that's what I was implying, I don't necessarily want another Mario game, or Halo 5, I want something that's genuinely new and exciting that couldn't have been done before on the previous generation.

Realism?

There has to be some hope, why should we just accept mediocrity?

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Yeah, that's what I was implying, I don't necessarily want another Mario game, or Halo 5, I want something that's genuinely new and exciting that couldn't have been done before on the previous generation.

The big problem with that, is who is going to gamble on something new like that with the kind of budgets that are going to be required. It's perfectly easy to see why the publishers want to plough money into well established brands when you consider the risks involved in launching new IP. It's a nasty, horrible spiral that the industry is in right now.

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There has to be some hope, why should we just accept mediocrity?

I think that launch titles are doomed to a certainly level of mediocrity, usually. It's new hardware, developers are finding their way and there's a set release point that you simply can't delay past. Nintendo do better in this respect as they know the hardware inside out (having developed it), so you can have some polished and very accomplished software.

I favourite period is in the middle of the console life-cycle, when developers know what they're doing but aren't get keeping up with the Joneses and tanking framerates.

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I think that launch titles are doomed to a certainly level of mediocrity, usually. It's new hardware, developers are finding their way and there's a set release point that you simply can't delay past. Nintendo do better in this respect as they know the hardware inside out (having developed it), so you can have some polished and very accomplished software.

I favourite period is in the middle of the console life-cycle, when developers know what they're doing but aren't get keeping up with the Joneses and tanking framerates.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I expect the launch titles from the PS4 and 720 to be very good for the sole reason that they are basically going to be hyped up PCs in a box, and devcos are already used to producing for the top spec PCs.The similarity between the next gen consoles and the PC will be a lot smaller than it was last time, especially with the bespoke nature of the PS3.
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I expect the launch titles from the PS4 and 720 to be very good for the sole reason that they are basically going to be hyped up PCs in a box, and devcos are already used to producing for the top spec PCs.The similarity between the next gen consoles and the PC will be a lot smaller than it was last time, especially with the bespoke nature of the PS3.

Well if you've just gone out on the correct limb, I'll be more than happy!

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His point (I hope, or else I'm barking up the wrong tree in a truly spectacular way) was related to your 'growing out of Nintendo' comment - which implies that Nintendo produces games which are somehow only of interest to, for want of a better phrase, kids and that everyone will 'grow' out of them.

Well, I feel often like I've 'grown out of Nintendo'. This doesn't mean at all that I think Nintendo games are for kids or too childish, or that I only want to play gritty brown games with bald marines. In fact, I really enjoy some cartoony games recently like Cave Story and Spelunky. I think a game like Trine with its colourful story world looks lovely and exciting. It means that Nintendo games have become so overly familiar and formulaic, that they just don't generate the excitement of old anymore.

Nintendo seems to have 2 major directions - please the fans and find new avenues. Pleasing the fans mainly means releasing new versions of familiar games. A new Mario. A new Zelda. A new Mario Kart. A new Pokemon. Something with Donkey Kong in. These games are generally well-made and fun to play, but often spectacularly unexciting because it's just the same old with a new twist. Apart from the brilliant first Mario Galaxy game then, that was a revelation and gives at least some confidence that the magic is still there, somewhere.

The 'finding new avenues' is a bit more problematic. This is Nintendo searching to do new things by rebooting an old franchise, trying a new genre (or mixing them up) or come up with something completely new. This is where the excitement should be, it gave us games like MarioKart (first 3D style kart game), PilotWings (first accessable console flight game), GoldenEye (first truly great FPS on a console), 1080 Snowboarding (on of the first truly great extreme sports game(s)), Mario 64 (first truly great 3D platformer), Ocarina of Time (first truly great 3D adventure), Advance Wars (a turn based strategy game you actually wanted to play - on a handheld!), Metroid Prime (first truly great 3D MetroidVania game) - anyway, you know the list. But these days this innovative force seems to go into stuff like Wii Sports / Fit / Music / BrainTraining / NintendoLand and other casual-pleasing shite. It sells, so that's OK, but from the perspective of a gamer like myself there is very little to get excited about. With Nintendo I can basically choose to play a game I already played 5, 10 or maybe even 25 years ago with some new graphics and a twist, or stuff that's more aimed at my mum. Now that could probably be said from a lot of publishers, but with Nintendo we got so spoiled in the past that you just expect more.

It really happens quite often that I play some indie or downloadable game on the PC or XBLA and think 'why didn't Nintendo come up with something like this?' or 'what if Nintendo tried to do this kind of stuff and really put the effort in, how amazing could it become?'. It's a bit sad.

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Trine 2 is a bit rubbish once you get past the, admittedly fucking gorgeous, graphics

That's a great response to all the points he makes. Though you could have made it even better by mentioning the not-formulaic-at-all NSMB series but I guess you've done that a few hundred times already.

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That's a great response to all the points he makes.

The problem is, pretty much all of the points he makes could be made against any of the three manufacturers - and yet it's Nintendo which is given a particularly hard time and expected to be the ones to lead the industry into pastures new at every single available opportunity. Clearly they are not going to please all the people all the time, but they are pleasing a lot of people a lot of the time (and even Nap has to admit they produced at least one certified classic this gen anyway so it's not like they've not produced anything of value for even the most hardcore gamer for decades or anything)

His post could just as easily have said:

It really happens quite often that I play some indie or downloadable game on the PC or XBLA and think 'why didn't Nintendo/Sony/MS come up with something like this?' or 'what if Nintendo/Sony/MS tried to do this kind of stuff and really put the effort in, how amazing could it become?'. It's a bit sad.

Nobody is arguing that Nap isn't perfectly entitled to his opinion, I just think some people are very quick to throw accusations at Nintendo like everyone else is churning out classic after classic without a single mis-step or sequel among them.

As for NSMB2 - I've already said in this thread that it leaves me totally cold. No interest to me whatsoever. That's not to say I believe Nintendo have suddenly lost it or are now doomed - I just appreciate that it's not one for me and move on. Nobody is forcing me to buy it, and it being released has not suddenly made everything else they've produced turn into dust.

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I don't get this. The Gamecube had an entire raft of hardcore pleasing Nintendo Software, and sold the least of that generation. This so called "core" are not what is needed any more. I've no idea what Nintendo actually need to appease people, but seeing as they'll be getting BLOPS2 and AC3 on day and date of release with the 360 and PS3, I don't know what else you want them to do. A new Metroid or Zelda or Galaxy will not bring these so called masses of core gamers flooding to the machine.

A machine which will be able to kick it with the boxes being brewed up in Redmond and Tokyo, and with guaranteed comprehensive support would do it. Get Iwata and Miyamoto to sign it in their own blood and I'd be sold. Finally a console from Nintendo where we could have our cake and eat it too, they did promise to at least sort out the licensee situation with the Wii U, but the evidence so far is a mite shaky even on that front.

If you buy a box from Sony or Microsoft, worrying about whether you're going to get decent software support is pretty far down your list of priorities, it's pretty much a given, not so much with the last few generations of Nintendo boxes, which you buy if you can't live without Nintendo's own software.

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Mario Kart 7 is the best Mario Kart. NSMB2 is the best if the recent 2D Marius. Skyward Sword was excellent...

What, what, WHAT!?!?!??! i doubt even the most hardened nintendo fanboy would say that, i think you need to play the original or super circuit again and refresh your memory. Its the 20th anniversary of the original, you fanboys should be all over that shit.

Basically NSMB2 is the best of the NSMB, not a great achievement but i still find more enjoyment out of Rayman Origins or Apple Jack

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