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Xbox One Console Thread

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Yeah, why not? Just because they've got the technology to do so doesn't mean the PS4 version will follow the same restrictions as the Bonestorm version- they could do that to the PS3 and 360 versions of the next FIFA too, and we expect to follow standard procedure without DRM. They'll be running the numbers on both versions to evaluate how the market responds to the different restrictions on resellability.

Agreed

If Sony dont go same route as Xbox One as they are indicating right now then it really will be the ultimate experiment.

I guess that to begin with publishers will support both machines and if indeed the Xbox's numbers are much higher due to lack of tradein or they are making more from 1st sales and tradein fees then PS4 support may well be reduced.

I cant see it happening as i dont think the restrictions on 2nd hand sales will make enough or any difference to profits to warrant dropping PS4.

If it did however it would be massively ironic that the "gamers console" PS4 would basically have support die off and MS win..

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[citation needed]

You keep bleeting this but there's no evidence for it whatsoever, yet. The rumours, which have been remarkably consistent and correct this generation have Sony not doing this.

They made Xbox versions that were region locked and PS3 versions that were not all last generation for instance. They don't make Wii-U games for one reason only, they don't sell.

It's just incredibly obvious. The publishers want this to stamp out second hand games. I mean... how could you even suggest they won't do exactly the same on the PS4. Why would that happen?

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If you can't take what they have written in plain english at face value then it is obvious that you wont be satisfied by any answer unless it has been thoroughly dissected in a "mr Logic" Viz cartoon.

Here are the rules summed up by EG

You do not own the games you buy. You license them.

Discs are only used to install and then license games and do not imply ownership.

People can play games installed on your console whether you're logged in or not.

10 people can be authorised to play these games on a different Xbox One via the cloud, but not at the same time, similar to iTunes authorised devices.

Publishers decide whether you can trade in your games and may charge for this.

Publishers decide whether you can give a game you own to someone for free, and this only works if they have been on your friends list for 30 days.

Your account allows you to play the games you license on any console.

Your Xbox One must connect to the internet every 24 hours to keep playing games.

When playing on another Xbox One with your account, this is reduced to one hour.

Live TV, Blu-ray and DVD movies are exempt from these internet requirements.

Loaning and renting games will not be possible at launch, but Microsoft is "exploring the possibilities".

Microsoft may change these policies or discontinue them at any point.

Some of those rules are so vague, though. That's not simple at all.

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The console might not but the game might require an online authentication.

Which was already possible on the PS3. If memory serves correctly, only one game ever used it (Bionic Commando Re-Armed 2).

And online authentication on a game basis doesn't preclude lending said game to a friend, does it ?

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Good point. They've made it more consumer friendly than their previous DRM model, or their DRM model on PCs, or anyone else's DRM model...

The Eurogamer piece is piss blowing in the wind.

Has Bramwell really only just caught up with the prevailing trends in game/music/movie/book/software ownership over the last ten years? Did he really think that the current state of play was going to last forever as digital purchasing became mainstream?

Have Sony announced how you're going to transfer your purchase of The Last Of Us that you bought digitally?

Presumably no-one is buying it digitally, or bought Journey digitally, or Fez digitally, or Geometry Wars 2:Retro Evolved digitally? Or trying to play any and/or all of them on multiple boxes at once, just like they would with a disk...

I have sympathy for everyone who's spent all their time trading games in order to fund their next fix. I have very little sympathy for anyone who's actually shocked/surprised by this development.

Oh Christ. The entire issue became a problem because they still distribute games on physical media. If they had cut out the discs none of this would have surprised anyone and they would've been hailed as the real Steam Box. But no, they still deliver games physically, but they aren't physical. This is what will screw people over. This is what people are against.

Steam, PSN, XBL, iOS, Android, everybody gets how it works with virtual stuff, they're used to it. But present it as physical and you'll get different expectations. Don't cross the streams.

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Which was already possible on the PS3. If memory serves correctly, only one game ever used it (Bionic Commando Re-Armed 2).

And online authentication on a game basis doesn't preclude lending said game to a friend, does it ?

Dunno, does it?

Alls Sony have said it the PS4 doesn't need to be always online. Because some countries don't have robust internet. They don't mention people with no internet.

Telling you, it's going to be exactly the same on both consoles. Jesus, the idea EA are running some kind of experiment is quite the silliest thing I've ever heard.

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The console might not but the game might require an online authentication.

And so why would MS get themselves lumbered with what is without doubt the least attractive option?

Fifa was region locked on 360 and wasnt on ps3.

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And so why would MS get themselves lumbered with what is without doubt the least attractive option?

Because it might turn out that their publishing partners make ten cents on the dollar more selling on a machine with the restrictions, in which case they'll spend significantly more money over the lifetime of the generation on Bonestorm.

It's a gamble, essentially. Make yourself potentially far more attractive to publishers and if the numbers add up, you can almost monopolise their interest, because you're doing what Sony asks publishers to do themselves.

Of course it might turn out that retail and gamers hate the Bone's secondary market restrictions, and it dies a horrible, horrible death lumbered with a baked-in DRM system that the PS4 conveniently avoids.

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Some of those rules are so vague, though. That's not simple at all.

Am I living in some alternative reality where english is a second language?

What is vague? This system is the existing 360 licensing system with physical media added on to it complicating it a bit.

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Because it might turn out that their publishing partners make ten cents on the dollar more selling on a machine with the restrictions, in which case they'll spend significantly more money over the lifetime of the generation on Bonestorm.

It's a gamble, essentially. Make yourself potentially far more attractive to publishers and if the numbers add up, you can almost monopolise their interest, because you're doing what Sony asks publishers to do themselves.

Of course it might turn out that retail and gamers hate the Bone's secondary market restrictions, and it dies a horrible, horrible death lumbered with a baked-in DRM system that the PS4 conveniently avoids.

You don't really believe that do you?

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If you can't take what they have written in plain english at face value then it is obvious that you wont be satisfied by any answer unless it has been thoroughly dissected in a "mr Logic" Viz cartoon.

Okay, what the actual fuck? All I am doing is pointing out unanswered questions, I did not expect to receive this level of patronising shite in return. Then you for some unknown reason say I'm "picking holes" as if trying to figure out how this all works is a bad thing.

The reason that I'm not "satisfied" by any answer is that you haven't actually given any, and a secondary reason is that as I have repeatedly pointed out, I'm not actually looking for them anyway, I am just saying that there's unanswered questions.

In fact, let me just clarify the whole thing down to something much simpler: there are a lot of unanswered questions. There. Can you accept that?

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Jesus, the idea EA are running some kind of experiment is quite the silliest thing I've ever heard.

EA aren't running it, MS are. Literally all the bad press goes back against the console manufacturer.

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You don't really believe that do you?

That publishers think they could make a higher margin with restrictions in place on second-hand sales and lending, but that it's an untested hypothesis, and one that all market research suggests will be intensely unpopular with their core userbase, so it makes sense to have a plan B? Yeah.

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I'm amazed the amount of people on here who seem to think that a company could release a digital copy only console with Blu-Ray size downloads and be a big mainstream success.

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If MS sell 10 million Xbone's before it runs out of steam thanks to continuous bad press and the attachment rate is dire, and the PS4 sells a gajillion units because its used game policy actually makes some sense (and other stuff), which do you think publishers will support?

The one that makes them the most profit.

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Am I living in some alternative reality where english is a second language?

What is vague? This system is the existing 360 licensing system with physical media added on to it complicating it a bit.

Publishers decide whether you can trade in your games and may charge for this. Charge what, exactly? The only figure that's been touted is the cost of a new game.

Publishers decide whether you can give a game you own to someone for free, and this only works if they have been on your friends list for 30 days. Wishy washy. And can be changed at any point.

Your Xbox One must connect to the internet every 24 hours to keep playing games. - What, every 24 hours, or every 24 hour period? What happens if I don't connect? Can I never play the game again?

When playing on another Xbox One with your account, this is reduced to one hour. - Again, what happens if I miss this hour period?

Loaning and renting games will not be possible at launch, but Microsoft is "exploring the possibilities". - So...they don't know. Cool

Microsoft may change these policies or discontinue them at any point. - All rules may be changed at any time, tough shit.

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EA aren't running it, MS are. Literally all the bad press goes back against the console manufacturer.

Sure, I get that. But you have to sort of go back to how this whole idea came about. Surely publishers were pushing for it. Now, why on earth would they push for it. MS implement it and yet people seem to expect Sony not to do it. There's no way such a scenario could occur.

EA don't care if 50million ps4s and 50 million xbox1s get sold or 100 million xbox ones. Why would they support Sony? It's not like Sony could go it alone, without the big publishers.

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Good point. They've made it more consumer friendly than their previous DRM model, or their DRM model on PCs, or anyone else's DRM model...

The Eurogamer piece is piss blowing in the wind.

Has Bramwell really only just caught up with the prevailing trends in game/music/movie/book/software ownership over the last ten years? Did he really think that the current state of play was going to last forever as digital purchasing became mainstream?

There's a lot of this going around, this "suck it up losers, this is the future" mentality. It's only the future if the customers stand for it. Vote with your wallets.

Already you can loan Kindle books digitally. There's rumblings of Steam being forced to allow license transfer under EU law. Things can change.

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The reason that I'm not "satisfied" by any answer is that you haven't actually given any, and a secondary reason is that as I have repeatedly pointed out, I'm not actually looking for them anyway, I am just saying that there's unanswered questions.

In fact, let me just clarify the whole thing down to something much simpler: there are a lot of unanswered questions. There. Can you accept that?

I gave you answers you didnt like them. In my example I said that I read a plain english explanation that MS gave and they refer to a game being registered to "your console" and I said that means you only have one you cant have two otherwise they'd have used a plural. No assumptions there unless you are saying we cannot read the sentences at face value.

The only unanswered questions I see are

1) Which retailers are allowed to do 2nd hand tradeins.

2) What fee is each publisher going to charge.

Which are both presumably either

a) under negotiation

b) Up to the publisher to decide

The DRM features seem perfectly plain and obvious to me.

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I'm amazed the amount of people on here who seem to think that a company could release a digital copy only console with Blu-Ray size downloads and be a big mainstream success.

They're only saying that the DRM would be more acceptable, since it would match pretty much every other digital store.

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Im starting to think the retort but buuuu but sony will do the same is some childish shit response. Its like it makes everything ok if both of them are fucking us up the arse at the same time. Its not its shit ms are doing this it will be double shit if and when sony do it, its a shit one up game going on between kids in a play ground.

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That publishers think they could make a higher margin with restrictions in place on second-hand sales and lending, but that it's an untested hypothesis, and one that all market research suggests will be intensely unpopular with their core userbase, so it makes sense to have a plan B? Yeah.

Think about that. It doesn't make any sense.

So. MS, you suggest, are on board with this very unpopular test, so that... what was it? Down the line they get the support? Because these consoles can't survive without the support. But EA's back-up plan, in case the unpopular thing proves too unpopular, is to not do the very unpopular thing on a different console?

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I'm still completely perplexed by all this. I was happily moving across to the next xbox by default but absolutely nothing other than the vague promise of "the cloud" has had a positive draw so far.

That said, pretty much nothing announced for the PS4 has been interesting to me either, other than the Share button.

I really hope E3 shows some ridiculous and amazing things. I'm too young to be old and jaded already.

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I gave you answers you didnt like them. In my example I said that I read a plain english explanation that MS gave and they refer to a game being registered to "your console" and I said that means you only have one you cant have two otherwise they'd have used a plural. No assumptions there unless you are saying we cannot read the sentences at face value.

The only unanswered questions I see are

1) Which retailers are allowed to do 2nd hand tradeins.

2) What fee is each publisher going to charge.

Which are both presumably either

a) under negotiation

b) Up to the publisher to decide

The DRM features seem perfectly plain and obvious to me.

Really, the more you read it the more the wording jumps out, its carefully worded and plays on words. Alot is still up in the air.

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That seems to cover it.Iphone/iPad are similar to Steam model as well... and again pricing is king on those formats.

My point was they are going this Steam/appstore route but they are having to

a) fuck it up by allowing for physical media which sets customer expectations as to trade in and lending etc. So they have had to make some concessions there

b) The biggest question is pricing and how fluid it is. It wont be as fluid as Steam/Appstore but it will HAVE to have some fluidity or it'll be dead in the water there arent enough £40 purchasers out there

The assertion has always been that physical media is expensive because of the associated production/packaging costs. If they can offer a digital model that is cheaper then people will stop buying physical discs and that takes the problem away to an extent. I think real issue with this is that people who buy the physical media are going to struggle with the concept of owning the disc and then not being able to do what they want with it.

If you look at it in a PC software context, what they're doing has been around for ages really - if you buy Office or Photoshop on disc, short of piracy, it's been authenticated online for years. And a lot of applications are free to download and you pay for the licence. Maybe they should have distributed it that way instead - free download, 2 hours free play, and then you pay your money to unlock the full game. Licence key is locked to your account.

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The assertion has always been that physical media is expensive because of the associated production/packaging costs. If they can offer a digital model that is cheaper then people will stop buying physical discs and that takes the problem away to an extent. I think real issue with this is that people who buy the physical media are going to struggle with the concept of owning the disc and then not being able to do what they want with it.

If you look at it in a PC software context, what they're doing has been around for ages really - if you buy Office or Photoshop on disc, short of piracy, it's been authenticated online for years. And a lot of applications are free to download and you pay for the licence. Maybe they should have distributed it that way instead - free download, 2 hours free play, and then you pay your money to unlock the full game.

There is no way in hell they drop the price day one of a game, they have this nice fall back still of well we sell the game on disc so we have to match those rrp. Id eat my hat if day one game buy is cheaper as a download than i can find online shop.

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I reckon they should have just kept things as they are but made physical copies slightly more expensive than digital. That way you're just paying a bit more for the ability to lend and trade your games, and if you're not bothered about it you can just get the cheaper digital version.

I'm sure there's something massive I've missed with that thinking though.

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Publishers decide whether you can trade in your games and may charge for this. Charge what, exactly? The only figure that's been touted is the cost of a new game.

That is upto publishers why would MS announce what publishers are going to do? They said they will not charge any tradein fee or take any slice of a trade in fee...

Publishers decide whether you can give a game you own to someone for free, and this only works if they have been on your friends list for 30 days. Wishy washy. And can be changed at any point.

the appstore and Steam T&Cs can also be changed at any point, that last point is EG editorialising. And how is it wishy washy? I can gift a game registered to my gamertag to anyone on my friends list as long as they have been on there for last 30 days... how is that wishy washy?

Your Xbox One must connect to the internet every 24 hours to keep playing games. - What, every 24 hours, or every 24 hour period? What happens if I don't connect? Can I never play the game again?

It says every 24 hrs, so I assume it means "every 24 hrs". As in once a day, as in if you dont swithc it on for 3 days then if it doesnt connect it hasnt connected once every 24 hrs. And if you dont connect? you cant play the game til you do connect...

When playing on another Xbox One with your account, this is reduced to one hour. - Again, what happens if I miss this hour period?

you cant play the game til you do connect.

Loaning and renting games will not be possible at launch, but Microsoft is "exploring the possibilities". - So...they don't know. Cool

They havent decided obviously thats clear. If they said nothing at all you'd all be whining on about them not saying anything about renting/loaning. So not vague... renting/loaning? NO

Same as PS4 , does it have backwards compat to PS3... we are looking into possibilities... so NO then.

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Think about that. It doesn't make any sense.

So. MS, you suggest, are on board with this very unpopular test, so that... what was it? Down the line they get the support? Because these consoles can't survive without the support. But EA's back-up plan, in case the unpopular thing proves too unpopular, is to not do the very unpopular thing on a different console?

Interesting point that. Has EA announced any titles for PS4 yet? I know some of the stuff they've already announced normally comes out on the PS3 too but is there any confirmation that those same titles will be available for the PS4? That goes for the other big publishers too.

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