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Official Star Wars Thread - May the force be with you

gospvg

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kensei

kensei

Posted
Posted
18 hours ago, Talvalin said:

 

Agreed.

 

I wouldn't give credit to Abrams for thinking of this, especially given that things weren't quite so bad when TFA was released, but the sequel trilogy could also be viewed as showing that the fight is never over, and the gains of yesterday can be so easily undone without constant vigilance.

 

It could, except it was a cynical exercise in trying to soft reboot to the OT status quo.

 

TFA is a likeable film that moves at a good pace but the root of all the problems is there.

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Cheeko

Cheeko

Posted
Posted

Rewatched TLJ  m for the first time over Christmas, yeah still hate it as much as I did in the cinema, yeah sure there are some cool bits but it’s not like Rian is incompetent and he’s making a big budget Star Wars film so even a broken clock is right twice a day eh?

 

The fact they didn’t have an outline for the trilogy is mind boggling, Rian got free reign to pitch the exact film he wanted to make and Kathleen et al loved it so much and were so convinced of its amazingness that they announced he was going to be doing his own trilogy, the people at the helm of this were utterly clueless. I feel for JJ, he became the only one whose career could survive the unavoidable shit show that was making the last film, it was clearly a horrendous experience for him leaving him depressed and overwhelmed during making it. Knowing it was an impossible task and all the while Kathleen pulling crap like going into the editors room and telling them to just get through it faster.

 

Personally I’m so glad we got Rogue One though. Disney peops hated it but George stood by it. 

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Phantoon

Phantoon

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, kensei said:

We last see Luke in Return of The Jedi - he's been tested and he's passed. He's rejected the Dark Side. He is a Jedi. He, like the Republic, can rebuild.

In life, you don't just get tested the once.

 

And indeed, he doesn't turn to the Dark Side. He tries to rebuild. It turns out it's harder than he could have imagined. Doing what he does in The Last Jedi takes enormous strength of character and discipline; taking yourself away from everyone you've ever loved so you can't hurt them any more is an enormous sacrifice. It turns out that it's misguided.

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kensei

kensei

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Phantoon said:

In life, you don't just get tested the once.

 

And indeed, he doesn't turn to the Dark Side. He tries to rebuild. It turns out it's harder than he could have imagined. Doing what he does in The Last Jedi takes enormous strength of character and discipline; taking yourself away from everyone you've ever loved so you can't hurt them any more is an enormous sacrifice. It turns out that it's misguided.

 

Sure, but in movies bringing a new character back in radically altered form is easy to fuck up. Start wrong, and people won't go on the journey with you.

 

All the talk about power levels and Luke kicking ass misses the point. A lot of people just wanted a glimpse of a character they liked again in recognisable form and didn't get that for most of the movie. There also looked to be a more interesting story hidden in flashbacks.

 

I don't think Luke's arc is all that great in the film either. He's a weirdly passive figure. He doesn't know about Rey's communication with Kylo. There's really limited teaching time. Rey isn't there in the key change of heart moment and she doesn't really challenge him, just kicks him about a bit when she's had enough. The key scene is Yoda setting fire to a tree. Then he dies despite the film carefully setting up a scenario where he doesn't have to because Rian Johnson really really wants the two suns death shot. It's poetry, it rhymes.

 

It's a shame, because the fight and projection is on point. I just wish it was in service of a better film.

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Phantoon

Phantoon

Posted
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11 hours ago, kensei said:

All the talk about power levels and Luke kicking ass misses the point. A lot of people just wanted a glimpse of a character they liked again in recognisable form and didn't get that for most of the movie. There also looked to be a more interesting story hidden in flashbacks.

 

I don't think Luke's arc is all that great in the film either. He's a weirdly passive figure. He doesn't know about Rey's communication with Kylo. There's really limited teaching time. Rey isn't there in the key change of heart moment and she doesn't really challenge him, just kicks him about a bit when she's had enough. The key scene is Yoda setting fire to a tree. Then he dies despite the film carefully setting up a scenario where he doesn't have to because Rian Johnson really really wants the two suns death shot. It's poetry, it rhymes.

People had their "Luke behaving like they remember" - it's called the original trilogy. Personally speaking I don't want new stories to be remixes of old stories, time has passed and people have changed. 

 

Luke doesn't know about the communication with Kylo because it's stupid and dangerous and (in fact) being setup by Snoke. So he'd have shut that down straightaway.

 

Why should Rey be anything to do with his change of heart? This is going to sound like an anti-JJ rant but it has a lot to do with how he sets the story up. Before I start this point, I need to stress that Rey isn't a Mary Sue and there's nothing wrong with her being good at things. That said, in the previous film she's effectively given a load of stuff she didn't earn and it seems fine only in that she's the main character. Why did Han immediately give her a spot in the Falcon? She'd done literally nothing to impress him at that point. Why was Leia so fond of her at the end of the film that when Han dies she comforts Rey rather than Han's actual best mate and life partner Chewie? (And on a related note, why when Chewie apparently snuffs it does nobody care for very long or look that relieved when it turns out he isn't actually dead?) It's because JJ is writing for the audience. The audience knows Rey is super important and they also know Chewie isn't dead. It leads to really pacy blockbusters but it's crap for the characters.

 

Who is Rey to Luke? Nobody. Why would she be able to talk him into or out of anything? She doesn't have an iota of a clue what he's been through. But you know who does? Artoo. And he does it in the most effective way I could imagine, remind him of his sister who needs his help. I thought it was a brilliant use of a character who'd been completely sidelined in the previous film for some bizarre reason. Also Rian remembers that Chewie is an actual character with things to do beyond being Han's dog.

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kensei

kensei

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Phantoon said:

People had their "Luke behaving like they remember" - it's called the original trilogy. Personally speaking I don't want new stories to be remixes of old stories, time has passed and people have changed. 

 

For the what the fourth time? - show me that story and don't drop it on me. 

 

11 hours ago, Phantoon said:

People had their "Luke behaving like they remember" - it's called the original trilogy. Personally speaking I don't want new stories to be remixes of old stories, time has passed and people have changed. 

 

Who is Rey to Luke? Nobody. Why would she be able to talk him into or out of anything? She doesn't have an iota of a clue what he's been through. But you know who does? Artoo. And he does it in the most effective way I could imagine, remind him of his sister who needs his help. I thought it was a brilliant use of a character who'd been completely sidelined in the previous film for some bizarre reason. Also Rian remembers that Chewie is an actual character with things to do beyond being Han's dog.

 

Rey is the protagonist of the film and the agent of change. I didn't say she had to talk him out of it. But she should be the agent that drives the change - via challenging him or action. 

 

I thought the scene with R2D2 just trades on nostalgia rather than something that a new, well structured film would do. And I thought Chewie remained criminally underused.

 

Different strokes for different folks. But it's easy to see why the film is so divisive.

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Sexton Hardcastle

Sexton Hardcastle

Posted
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That’s an interesting one. Bo Katan is a thoroughly unlikeable character when she’s in Clone Wars & appeared to have no redemption in Mando. If anything I thought she would have been the antagonist in s3 of Mando. 
 

Though judging by the 3 episodes so far of Boba Fett it’s not inconceivable for them to completely change a characters personality. 

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Phantoon

Phantoon

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, kensei said:

 

For the what the fourth time? - show me that story and don't drop it on me. 

 

 

Rey is the protagonist of the film and the agent of change. I didn't say she had to talk him out of it. But she should be the agent that drives the change - via challenging him or action. 

 

I thought the scene with R2D2 just trades on nostalgia rather than something that a new, well structured film would do. And I thought Chewie remained criminally underused.

 

Different strokes for different folks. But it's easy to see why the film is so divisive.

Why should they show you the story of what happened to Luke? In media res is a normal storytelling technique for things which are setup to the story being told. They tell you all you need to know in the film you're watching anyway.

 

Second of all, "agent of change" is a poor way of evaluating a work of art. It's a guideline, and like all guidelines it can be safely ignored if it doesn't help you tell the story you want to tell. There's no checklist for what is good art and what isn't. Does a work of art get an emotional reaction from you, positive or negative? If it does, it's good. If it doesn't, then the checklist might help work out why it didn't. Anyway, Rey is an agent of change, so you can happily tick that box, if that's what you care about. She's just not Luke's agent of change.

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JPL

JPL

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Phantoon said:

Why should they show you the story of what happened to Luke? In media res is a normal storytelling technique for things which are setup to the story being told. They tell you all you need to know in the film you're watching anyway.

 

Second of all, "agent of change" is a poor way of evaluating a work of art. It's a guideline, and like all guidelines it can be safely ignored if it doesn't help you tell the story you want to tell. There's no checklist for what is good art and what isn't. Does a work of art get an emotional reaction from you, positive or negative? If it does, it's good. If it doesn't, then the checklist might help work out why it didn't. Anyway, Rey is an agent of change, so you can happily tick that box, if that's what you care about. She's just not Luke's agent of change.

TLJ is a work of art now?! Even the bit where we think it’s a spaceship coming in to land, but no… it’s an iron!

 

I’m only joking by the way, I get what you’re saying really.

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Harsin

Harsin

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, JohnC said:

It seems Ming-Na Wen posted then quickly deleted a tweet congratulating Katee Sackhoff on what appears to be landing a Bo Katan show. 


It's feeling like a bit like Mandalorian overload. We already have The Mandalorian. (with a new series starting soon), The Book of Boba Fett, the co-star of the Ashoka series is a Mandalorian and now another series about a Mandalorian.

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Phantoon

Phantoon

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, JPL said:

TLJ is a work of art now?! Even the bit where we think it’s a spaceship coming in to land, but no… it’s an iron!

 

I’m only joking by the way, I get what you’re saying really.

Lol, was wondering how much pushback I'd get on that

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drmick

drmick

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Harsin said:


It's feeling like a bit like Mandalorian overload. We already have The Mandalorian. (with a new series starting soon), The Book of Boba Fett, the co-star of the Ashoka series is a Mandalorian and now another series about a Mandalorian.

 

Building up to Tatooine/Mando: Endgame. With time travel back to the Obi Wan series.

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kensei

kensei

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, Phantoon said:

It's a guideline, and like all guidelines it can be safely ignored if it doesn't help you tell the story you want to tell. There's no checklist for what is good art and what isn't. 

 

Fair enough. It's does its own thing and is unfortunately a shit film. Worse, it is outright boring in sections. As the middle film of a trilogy, it's an outright disaster.

 

As usual when anyone discussing The Last Jedi, basically all the conversation does is back people into their corners and they will never ever agree.

 

You liked it. I really didn't and dislike it more since. Different strokes.

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Festoon

Festoon

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, kensei said:

 

Fair enough. It's does its own thing and is unfortunately a shit film. Worse, it is outright boring in sections. As the middle film of a trilogy, it's an outright disaster.

 

The films surrounding it are worse. 1 was a dull retread and 3 just an incompetent mess.

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kensei

kensei

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Festoon said:

 

The films surrounding it are worse. 1 was a dull retread and 3 just an incompetent mess.

 

I genuinely enjoyed TFA, other than being annoyed with Rey being instantly good at everything. It moves at a zip and has a really likeable cast. That covers a lot of sins. It's a bit like his Star Trek reboot in that regard.

 

TROS decided it didn't want to make Kylo Ren the irremediable big buy guy and that was basically the only workable choice so it thrashed about wildly. It's bad but different bad to TLJ.

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RubberJohnny

RubberJohnny

Posted
Posted

TROS seems like an introduction to the First Order we should have had, a new threat doing raids in the outer systems and always retreating behind this mysterious nebula, a governmental group investigating and needing to find their way through to investigate (map quest), discovering a big invasion army on the other side with a climactic battle that strikes a blow to the Republic and upends the status quo for the next films.

 

Obviously because Abrams can't do sequels, the third film reads like an alternate first act, but I think this one actually includes the worldbuilding you kind of needed in the new trilogy for it to stand alone rather than treating it as if the most important thing was the nostalgia fanservice of "what are the original cast doing" and "find a map to the original cast".

 

It's like how Matrix Resurrections has some better ideas for sequels to the Matrix than the sequels we got which just went for stronger punching, but is still a terrible film on its own merits.

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Festoon

Festoon

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, sandman said:

Just watching TFA now. Christ, the opening scrawl is awful. Leia is apparently leading a RESISTANCE. What, didn’t the rebel alliance win last time around? Surely the first order is the resistance?  

 

JJ doesn't give a fuck. He's remaking Star Wars 

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