Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[rafaqat]

1 minute ago, Rev said:

 

I don't think they set "going rates". Do you think they should?

 

Also, if someone subsequently calls someone a paedophile after that person has already successfully sued someone who made a similar accusation, they'll be finding themselves in court pretty quickly.

 

The point I was making (badly) was that you can't really set an amount and think it cancels it all out like you're making out. 

[Unofficial Who]

1 minute ago, rafaqat said:

 

With regards to your comment,  you have to believe people when they make an accusation but if there's no proof what do you expect the authorities to do though when it's just one persons word against the other?   What would be the correct response from the authorities when faced with that and an investigation reveals nothing?

 

 

And I guess this is where metoo, Royal Comissions or calling out come into play. Because one or two people coming forward will generally lead to more people coming forward and at least prevent future abuse. It also allows the possibility of recognising what survivors have been through and getting them resources and help.

 

I don't know how you resolve the issue of potential bad actors but there are many men who if they hadn't of been called out would have continued to abuse the people around them were it not for calling this behaviour out publicly.

[rafaqat]

3 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

And I guess this is where metoo, Royal Comissions or calling out come into play. Because one or two people coming forward will generally lead to more people coming forward and at least prevent future abuse. It also allows the possibility of recognising what survivors have been through and getting them resources and help.

 

I don't know how you resolve the issue of potential bad actors but there are many men who if they hadn't of been called out would have continued to abuse the people around them were it not for calling this behaviour out publicly.

 

Yup. As mentioned further up.   If people weren't made to feel like they were regarded as liars or "asking for it" from the get go then more people would report it and the patterns of the serial abusers would be picked up much earlier  by the authorities 

[Rev]

1 minute ago, rafaqat said:

 

The point I was making (badly) was that you can't really set an amount and think it cancels it all out like you're making out. 

 

How much needs to be cancelled out? Do you really think someone who has an apology from their accuser would have a problem getting a job in the games industry, with it in mind people who are proven to be abusive bullies continue to work without any real repercussions?

 

Also, while this (fictional) man may have their life ruined despite receiving an apology and damages, I think it's much more likely a man who successfully sued their accuser would become a minor celebrity and be hero-worshipped by the scum of the internet. He'd probably end up with a speaking tour. That's how the world works.

[Anne Summers]

5 hours ago, Phelan said:

Don’t be a pedantic twat you know what I mean. 

 

People can can work their ass off and do nothing wrong for twenty years and a rumour can kill their career or their life. 

If they've done nothing wrong, then a rumour won't kill their career.

 

And if by "kill their life" you mean they may commit suicide - rumours don't make people commit suicide. Guilty consciences can, though. 

[JohnC]

14 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

If they've done nothing wrong, then a rumour won't kill their career.

 

And if by "kill their life" you mean they may commit suicide - rumours don't make people commit suicide. Guilty consciences can, though. 

I highly doubt this to be true.

[Anne Summers]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I highly doubt this to be true.

Why?

 

[NickC]

Of course the system we are working with sucks for both the powerless victims and the wrongly accused.

 

But time and again we see (often the same) people worried about the much smaller group of wrongly accused men and showing a lot less interest in the much larger group of female victims who never see justice.

 

The fact is that rape and sexual assault convictions around the world are pitifully low. We know that rapists get off every day, and victims are shamed and harassed every day as part of a legal process that allows it. 

 

The minority who get wrongly accused might have to live a shit life in parts (or even sadly turn to suicide), but the majority who have to live with the result of rape and sexual assault are having an extremely shit time of it too, knowing that the person is out there free to attack someone else, knowing that society doesn't value or believe them, often traumatized by their experience in severely life-limiting ways. What about all the women who kill themselves because they knew they wouldn't be believed, or because their rapist walked free when they looked for justice? 

 

It never ceases to amaze me that in this completely unbalanced situation we have people always asking why there isn't more protection for the accused. The accused, of course, that are already protected by the police (where's her incontrovertible evidence?), the courts (how many sexual partners has she had?) and society (she was asking for it). Now these people want to go the extra mile to cover the accused asses on social media, too. 

 

It's like saying that US policemen need more power to be able to shoot citizens because a few of them have got killed by some lunatics in tragic circumstances. It's completely missing the point.

[PaB]

1 hour ago, Anne Summers said:

If they've done nothing wrong, then a rumour won't kill their career.

 

And if by "kill their life" you mean they may commit suicide - rumours don't make people commit suicide. Guilty consciences can, though. 

Just to be clear , you are asserting there has never been an example of anyone suffering personally or professionally as a result of a public allegation , moreover if it results in suicide , it’s a case of no smoke without fire .? Have I got that right ?

[Anne Summers]

18 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

Just to be clear , you are asserting there has never been an example of anyone suffering personally or professionally as a result of a public allegation , moreover if it results in suicide , it’s a case of no smoke without fire .? Have I got that right ?

I wouldn't go as far as saying never. 

If it results in suicide, I would say it is much more likely to be a case of guilty conscience. Just seems far more likely a scenario to me than someone committing suicide because ... they are upset about false accusations being made against them..? I'm actually not sure what is being postulated as the driver behind innocent people committing suicide after receiving false allegations.

 

 

[PaB]

5 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

Just seems far more likely a scenario to me than someone committing suicide because ... they are upset about false accusations being made against them..? I'm actually not sure what is being postulated as the driver behind innocent people committing suicide after receiving false allegations.

 

 

You can’t picture , say, a scenario where someone abandoned  by friends and family , loss of job , labelled in a certain way due to a public allegation would consider suicide as a way out ? 

 

Just to be clear I am taking about public allegations here , not a allegation made through a more “official” channel . And by no

means am i berating those people that have used social media to make accusations . The system is clearly broken if victims feel that social media is the only way they can start to come to terms with what has happened to them and is some way to find an outlet . But the solution is to fix the system . I realise of course that it is not something you can fix overnight . 

 

It is hard to see how long term , the use of social media as a platform to make allegations can have a good outcome as a whole . Nothwithstanding the metoo , movement which of course highlighted the depth of the problem with being believed . 

[Marlew]

Anne Summers, I'm genuinely staggered at your callous, insistent ignorance. That is some despicable shit. 

[Anne Summers]

3 minutes ago, PeteBrant said:

You can’t picture , say, a scenario where someone abandoned  by friends and family , loss of job , labelled in a certain way due to a public allegation would consider suicide as a way out ? 

 

 

 

 

I can picture it ... I just find it very unlikely. If I heard someone had committed suicide after being the subject of allegations ... Particularly from multiple people - I would be inclined to believe they were guilty.

 

 

Quote

It is hard to see how long term , the use of social media as a platform to make allegations can have a good outcome as a whole . Nothwithstanding the metoo , movement which of course highlighted the depth of the problem with being believed . 

 

I find this statement a bit contradictory - you seem to be saying you don't see how making allegations via social media can have a good outcome - then stating that the #metoo movement - a movement centering around allegations made over social media - DID have a good outcome. So I'm a little confused. 

[Clipper]

just google

 

man committed suicide after false rape allegations

 

(or indeed paedophile accusations)

 

There are cases... you might decide they are small enough in regularity to be statistical anomalies - but those anomalies are still avoidable suicides, they are victims as well.

 

We need to be careful how we tread and we need to consider many angles. What we need is better policing, better CPS support, better conviction rates and we need women to be believed more readily. If we had all of  those then maybe people who had suffered sexual abuse attacks might feel like they could approach the authorities instead of finding the only outlet that they "trust" or worse.

[PaB]

Just now, Anne Summers said:

 

 

I find this statement a bit contradictory - you seem to be saying you don't see how making allegations via social media can have a good outcome - then stating that the #metoo movement - a movement centering around allegations made over social media - DID have a good outcome. So I'm a little confused. 

 

 

I don’t agree that it’s contradictory , as I said , as a whole , it should be not become the de facto standard method of making allegations . Metoo highlighted a problem , the problem should be fixed . If people continue to feel that making allegations via social media is the only recourse they have , then nothing has been fixed . And I don’t think that’s a desireable outcome . 

[Anne Summers]

Just now, Stanshall said:

Innocent until proven guilty...by assumption.

 

An honorable principle to live by. Bravo. 

Innocent until proven guilty only applies to legal proceedings. 

[Made of Ghosts]

Perhaps not directly relevant to the sexual assault conversation but here's a good/very depressing read about how public outcry (over a much milder perceived offence) can trigger someone to commit suicide:

 

https://quillette.com/2019/01/30/the-death-of-a-dreamer/

[Marlew]

29 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

Innocent until proven guilty only applies to legal proceedings. 

 

I've no doubt that your own perspective would transcend the law.

 

Blessed are the self-righteous. 

[GamesGamesGames]

30 minutes ago, Made of Ghosts said:

Perhaps not directly relevant to the sexual assault conversation but here's a good/very depressing read about how public outcry (over a much milder perceived offence) can trigger someone to commit suicide:

 

https://quillette.com/2019/01/30/the-death-of-a-dreamer/

 

No comment being made about the article, just a reminder of the platform.

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette

[rafaqat]

 

2 hours ago, Anne Summers said:

Innocent until proven guilty only applies to legal proceedings. 

 

Ugh. Dude.  

[Unofficial Who]

3 hours ago, Anne Summers said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying never. 

If it results in suicide, I would say it is much more likely to be a case of guilty conscience. Just seems far more likely a scenario to me than someone committing suicide because ... they are upset about false accusations being made against them..? I'm actually not sure what is being postulated as the driver behind innocent people committing suicide after receiving false allegations.

 

 

 

This isn't well thought out, innocent people kill themselves all the time for all sorts of reasons. I know this isn't your intention but hand waving it away as "well that just proves something was up and / or true" is simplistic. Furthermore it's an outcome that's generally not one wanted by survivors who would prefer serial abusers engage in a number of actions including acknowledging the damage they've caused and changing so as not to create more hurt. Generally survivors would prefer not to have to deal with the guilt of feeling like they've been responsible for someone killing themselves.

 

[Anne Summers]

5 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

This isn't well thought out, innocent people kill themselves all the time for all sorts of reasons. 

 

 

Fair point. But remember we aren't talking about people who kill themselves for "all sorts of reasons". We're specifically talking about (hypothetical) people who kill themselves because they are the subject of accusations (founded or unfounded). 

[Phelan]

18 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

And yet women (and some men) can end up leaving their chosen fields or end their lives when abusive men are left to continue abusing. A small number of abusive men can over time create a massive negative impact for society as a whole. How do we balance that out?

Well, as someone who was accused through a whisper network and lost friends over it (and had to go to counselling because of the way people treated me over it) - and all because one girl said I had taken advantage of her four years prior (yet invited me to her party by text a week after we slept together four years earlier) I can honestly say I have no idea.

I believe most women but I am skeptical because our justice system is built on innocent until proven guilty and as someone who now avoids going to certain events because of the whisper network who have no proof then I think we need systems in place to help those being bullied or harassed but also checks and balances to prevent innocent people having their lives ruined.

[Phelan]

9 hours ago, Rev said:

 

They take the accuser to court for slander and require an apology as part of the settlement. 

 

Yeah I looked into that - sadly the time requirement is 18 months and also costs an absolute fortune to take someone to court for slander or defamation ($50k plus)

[Unofficial Who]

39 minutes ago, Phelan said:

Yeah I looked into that - sadly the time requirement is 18 months and also costs an absolute fortune to take someone to court for slander or defamation ($50k plus)

 

And then there's the Streisand effect where taking someone to court for slander or defamation can just increase the damage.

 

On the other side if someone who's been abused or mistreated wants to sue their abuser in court you're looking at 18 months, approx $100K plus and career damage.

[Phelan]

23 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

And then there's the Streisand effect where taking someone to court for slander or defamation can just increase the damage.

 

On the other side if someone who's been abused or mistreated wants to sue their abuser in court you're looking at 18 months, approx $100K plus and career damage.

Honestly the whole thing is a mess. I chose to walk away from an entire industry I had worked in and had many friends in because it wasn't worth the stress from the whisper campaign. I attempted to enter an event and was told I wasn't allowed as the event was a safe space for women and I asked him why and he said he had heard something about me and that he didn't want me to enter. 

 

Having experienced this from the other side it's not pleasant being branded for something you didn't do.

[BadgerFarmer]

Trying to understand what people are saying and engaging with it are usually a good start.

[Unofficial Who]

18 minutes ago, grindmouse said:

So what do you have to say on the topic to not get consistently negged:

 

“Cancel culture is a fantastic alternative to criminal justice and the crimes of those accused are always proportionate to the price they ultimately pay. It’s great many of them top themselves so they never face punishment or rehabilitation.”

 

?

 

I don't think that's entirely fair.

 

There's been a few people here including myself who''ve stated they'd like to see better alternatives.

 

As for negging, some posters will neg. Turn rep off or lobby for the rep system to be removed. As it is you're already on my "no neg" list along with others who've stated their wish to opt out of being negged.

[NickC]

On 17/09/2019 at 21:21, Anne Summers said:

Innocent until proven guilty only applies to legal proceedings. 

 

On 17/09/2019 at 23:40, rafaqat said:

Ugh. Dude.  

 

This is of course a very tricky subject, but there is a point somewhere here that I agree with.

Someone who has been raped has been raped. Full stop. If the rapist gets away with it, it still happened, they're still a rapist. The victim is still a victim.

Sometimes a rich sexual predator might use their wealth to hound and discredit his victims - see: Donald Trump. All perfectly legal. An innocent man, of course, even though he was caught admitting to sexually assaulting women on national TV.

And sometimes being guilty doesn't mean much anyway - sometimes a jury might reach a guilty verdict, only for a judge to be extremely lenient on the rapist - see: Brock Turner - because, well, he's a man from a certain background. Guilty, but not punished.

On this subject, there's an interesting detail I didn't mention about what happened with my sister - the guy who did it was Romanian. Why is that interesting? Well, her lawyers say it was possibly a factor in his guilty verdict. 

Before they decided to press charges my sister's legal team talked her through potential outcomes. Part of that process was about being realistic - summarising other cases with similarities to hers and exploring their outcomes. One case was particularly similar, and the result was 'not guilty'. My sister decided to press on anyway because she needed closure.

After she won her case, she asked her legal team why she'd got a good result but this other woman in the example case didn't. It's difficult to say for sure, but one potential reason was that the accused in the other case was a white middle-class English man. A Romanian was, perhaps, deemed more likely to have committed the crime.

So if my sister's rapist had been a white English guy and got off, would the rape never have happened? Of course not. Similarly, my sister decided to testify and answer questions by his lawyer, reliving the experience and having it implied that she was a slut. If she didn't do that and he got off as a result, would the rape never have happened? Of course not. Also, my sister was lucky enough to have the funds to pay for decent legal representation. If she hadn't access to that money, and he got off as a result, would the rape never have happened? Of course not.

So whilst the concept of innocent until proven guilty is laudable, the scales of justice in these cases are tipped so far in the favour of male sexual predators that its use is laughable. Our legal systems let rapists rape with few consequences. The focus should be on changing that system rather than tipping the scales further against victims.

[chamberlago]

The current CEO of Failbetter Games where Alexis Kennedy used to be CEO has written in a personal capacity in response to Alexis' statement

 

https://medium.com/@wastebooks/alexis-kennedy-71044efc0ecf

 

Quote

Alexis has now responded in a post he called ‘What Actually Happened’. It is not an accurate title. 

Quote

I’ve seen various suggestions that these matters should not have been raised publicly; that they should have been taken up with the individual, with a HR department, with the police, with the courts.

 

I can’t speak for others, but I’m talking about this because I want to work in an industry where:

- Newcomers of any gender can safely seek out sources of mentorship and guidance;

 

- People who’ve been harmed feel safe and welcome at our events;

 

- The standards of acceptable behaviour are higher than ‘has not committed a criminal offence’.

 

Right now, I can’t see an adequate alternative to public discussion. I’ll talk later about my own past attempt to address one part of this with Alexis privately. It wasn’t successful; had I or others tried again, I don’t believe it would have gone better.

Quote

his version of the story is inaccurate and omits important details

Quote

Alexis has an explanation for why so many people in the industry have believed the allegations. He says they were primed by a bunch of unfounded rumours in an echo chamber, perhaps spread by a single person. That isn’t true.

First, quite a few people have made it clear that their belief is founded on their own personal experiences with Alexis, or those of their direct acquaintances.

 

Second, not everything heard from others is a rumour. We all make use of information shared with us by others, and learn ways to assess its reliability. Personally, I have heard few rumours about Alexis. I have heard a lot of detailed and specific allegations. At this time, only a fraction of them have made their way onto the public internet. They aren’t mine to share. However, I’ll talk later about an experience I had with Alexis that I think illustrates the behaviour of which he has been accused, and which might help anyone who needs to form an opinion on this to do so.

 

Third, it’s a small industry. Many of us are acquainted with Alexis’s principal accusers, who put their own reputations on the line by speaking out. We have informed opinions about their integrity, judgement, access to information and evidential standards.

 

tl;dr: Alexis Kennedy is a lying abusive arsehole