Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Dig Dug]

When explaining why someones behaviour is an issue doesn't work you might as well give up on them until they figure it out on their own. Some people don't want to be helped.
Maybe if Neg is given a hard punishment that he can't come back from easily he might actually come to have some self-reflection. Just a thought.

[Broker]

If NEG committed some incel hate crime or something the blame would be squarely on the right wing YouTube drivel he’s been consuming and then spamming on here for years.

[chamberlago]

Scott Benson who worked with Alec Holowka who died last week on Night In The Woods has written about his relationship with him https://medium.com/@bombsfall/alec-2618dc1e23e

It's all very sad

[Unofficial Who]

21 hours ago, chamberlago said:

Scott Benson who worked with Alec Holowka who died last week on Night In The Woods has written about his relationship with him https://medium.com/@bombsfall/alec-2618dc1e23e

It's all very sad

 

Amazing piece although a content warning for anyone who's been involved in an emotionally abusive relationship.

 

And don't read the comments. (Edit, comments for the Medium piece have been deleted and locked.)

Edited September 4, 2019 by Unofficial Who

[Unofficial Who]

Laurie Penny has summarised the past two weeks here

 

https://www.wired.com/story/videogames-industry-metoo-moment-male-fragility/

 

The last paragraph is a much needed wake up call.

[Unofficial Who]

Alexis Kennedy of Failbetter (Cult Simulator) has released a statement denying all allegations levelled against him. http://weatherfactory.biz/what-actually-happened/

 

His partner has called for an end to call out culture https://weatherfactory.biz/blood-sport-call-out-culture-from-the-other-side/

 

I agree with her idea that there needs to be better structural ways of dealing with this so that there's a third way for men to go off and become better, not the current options of deny / exile / suicide. But again the same conclusion unless I'm missing the point. People who feel they've been abused or victimised are urged to make sure they are careful to put everyone else's needs and feelings first.

[Eighthours]

20 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

Alexis Kennedy of Failbetter (Cult Simulator) has released a statement denying all allegations levelled against him. http://weatherfactory.biz/what-actually-happened/

 

His partner has called for an end to call out culture https://weatherfactory.biz/blood-sport-call-out-culture-from-the-other-side/

 

I agree with her idea that there needs to be better structural ways of dealing with this so that there's a third way for men to go off and become better, not the current options of deny / exile / suicide. But again the same conclusion unless I'm missing the point. People who feel they've been abused or victimised are urged to make sure they are careful to put everyone else's needs and feelings first.

 

Her partner's article is very interesting, particularly this bit:

 

Quote

Modern systems of justice – and I’m talking proper justice, like juries, judges, the law – often fail women because they put the burden of proof on the accuser. This means successfully punishing people for things like sexual assault is difficult, because by the very nature of the offense – usually committed in private, between two people – there isn’t a whole bunch of evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused did the thing the accuser says they did. This is shitty, and it needs to change. But it’s tipped towards the defendant deliberately: Blackstone’s ratio, the idea that “it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”, is a vital founding principle of modern justice.

Call-out culture is the opposite. It thinks it’s better that ten innocents are brought down than one guilty person escapes. It’s designed from the ground up to remove people’s ability to defend themselves. It isn’t justice. It’s a lynch mob.

 

 

I would ask one question. If an allegation is false but accepted by the #metoo' movement on social media, how does the accused resolve it?

[BadgerFarmer]

Quote

Call-out culture is the opposite. It thinks it’s better that ten innocents are brought down than one guilty person escapes.

Does it?

[Phelan]

22 minutes ago, Eighthours said:

 

Her partner's article is very interesting, particularly this bit:

 

 

I would ask one question. If an allegation is false but accepted by the #metoo' movement on social media, how does the accused resolve it?

They can’t and that’s the problem. It can take a lifetime to build a solid reputation and a rumour to destroy it. 

[Anne Summers]

1 minute ago, Phelan said:

They can’t and that’s the problem. It can take a lifetime to build a solid reputation and a rumour to destroy it. 

How can it take a lifetime to build a solid reputation? That would mean no one could build a solid reputation until they have died. 

[PaB]

1 minute ago, Phelan said:

They can’t and that’s the problem. It can take a lifetime to build a solid reputation and a rumour to destroy it. 

Social Media is not the place to make serious allegations of any kind.  But that's the world we live in now.

[matt0]

Referring to all this as "call out culture" is centering the problem in the call outs and, by indirect association, with people who have been abused. The problem starts with the widespread abuse going on and the failure of formal systems to deal with it. Social media accusations carry so much weight right now because of the failure of those formal systems, if someone is falsely accused in this climate then they're indirectly a victim of those systemic failures too. The cultural problem isn't in the call outs, they're just a symptom.

 

In terms of how someone accused in this way can respond, their options, they don't have many, if any. That's obviously shitty but it's also the reverse of the power dynamic for abused people who try and go through the ostensibly proper channels.

 

You'd think there'd be a lesson in that about the work that needs to be done in industries, in companies, to the legal system, in society as a whole. But you still hear over and over "HR and going to the police isn't working, we know that, but.... maybe go through HR and go to the police?"

[rafaqat]

36 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

How can it take a lifetime to build a solid reputation? That would mean no one could build a solid reputation until they have died. 

 

Yup.  He clearly meant literally a lifetime rather than " a very long time" 

 

[Eighthours]

1 hour ago, matt0 said:

Referring to all this as "call out culture" is centering the problem in the call outs and, by indirect association, with people who have been abused. The problem starts with the widespread abuse going on and the failure of formal systems to deal with it. Social media accusations carry so much weight right now because of the failure of those formal systems, if someone is falsely accused in this climate then they're indirectly a victim of those systemic failures too. The cultural problem isn't in the call outs, they're just a symptom.

 

In terms of how someone accused in this way can respond, their options, they don't have many, if any. That's obviously shitty but it's also the reverse of the power dynamic for abused people who try and go through the ostensibly proper channels.

 

You'd think there'd be a lesson in that about the work that needs to be done in industries, in companies, to the legal system, in society as a whole. But you still hear over and over "HR and going to the police isn't working, we know that, but.... maybe go through HR and go to the police?"

 

We're in a new situation where the complete failure of workplace systems and the justice system to deal properly and fairly with abuse and harassment has directly led to call-out culture being seen as an avenue for obtaining some form of justice. However, this in itself is very problematic - we're losing (or have already lost) the guiding principle that 'innocent until proven guilty' is our starting point, and beyond that, social media has in the past few years gained a lynch mob mentality no matter what side of a particular argument you happen to be on because  everything is so polarised. Politics, religion, gaming, abuse/harassment allegations, you name it. On the other hand, how else are women going to out abusive men? Should these men just continue to get away with it?

 

The answer is pretty obvious but seems impossible to implement without a wholescale change in attitudes and a massive load of extra funding worldwide - namely that if the workplace and justice systems I mentioned above worked properly, there would be no need for call-out culture at all. Systemic failures have led to the current situation, but the current situation has created its own problems that people on all sides will seek to exploit and have already done so. Not everyone plays fair, and that's one of the reasons why abuse happens in the first place, why workplace culture is usually hopelessly inadequate to deal with allegations, and why call-out culture can't ultimately be any kind of solution.

 

Despite the above, I can totally see why naming and shaming seems like the only thing to do at present. I can only hope that will change, but it seems like a long road to get there. In the meantime, I'm thinking about one sentence from the earlier article about call-out culture: 'It thinks it’s better that ten innocents are brought down than one guilty person escapes.' We used to think that was unacceptable when it involved prison or, even more horrifically, death. Do we still think that now when we apply it to the social media age? If not, why not? Is it a price worth paying if it rebalances the scales? I find myself going back and forth on this one.

[RubberJohnny]

1 hour ago, matt0 said:

Referring to all this as "call out culture" is centering the problem in the call outs and, by indirect association, with people who have been abused. The problem starts with the widespread abuse going on and the failure of formal systems to deal with it. Social media accusations carry so much weight right now because of the failure of those formal systems, if someone is falsely accused in this climate then they're indirectly a victim of those systemic failures too. The cultural problem isn't in the call outs, they're just a symptom.

 

In terms of how someone accused in this way can respond, their options, they don't have many, if any. That's obviously shitty but it's also the reverse of the power dynamic for abused people who try and go through the ostensibly proper channels.

 

I think the actual argument was we've replaced something bad and not working with something bad and not working, just in the other direction. The actual conclusion the post you're responding to is suggesting the work that needs to be done in industries, in companies, to the legal system, in society as a whole, etc.

 

You're agreeing with the post while phrasing it as disagreement.

[Sane]

In reality there are not 10 innocents brought down for each guilty one though. If anything the amount of innocent men being accused of abuse is a fraction of the amount of guilty men. Of course there's no way to prove this, but we all know it's true. It doesn't solve the dilemma but it does place it in a more honest context.

[matt0]

6 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

 

I think the actual argument was we've replaced something bad and not working with something bad and not working, just in the other direction. The actual conclusion the post you're responding to is suggesting the work that needs to be done in industries, in companies, to the legal system, in society as a whole, etc.

 

You're agreeing with the post while phrasing it as disagreement.

 

I don't agree with the tone of the post or a lot of the points made in it though (assuming we're both talking about Lottie Bevan's post). I definitely don't agree with calling social media call outs "Blood sport", which I think is demonising people who in most cases felt they had no other choice or were compelled to action to prevent cycles of abuse.

 

I obviously agree with:

 

"We need structure and accountability and justice to make this industry a better place for women."

 

I don't agree with:

 

"Structure, accountability and justice are all things call-out culture’s left behind."

 

Endemic misogyny has left these things behind. Rape culture has left these things behind. "Call out culture" is what's left.

[Phelan]

1 hour ago, Anne Summers said:

How can it take a lifetime to build a solid reputation? That would mean no one could build a solid reputation until they have died. 

Don’t be a pedantic twat you know what I mean. 

 

People can can work their ass off and do nothing wrong for twenty years and a rumour can kill their career or their life. 

[Unofficial Who]

And this is the big issue, call out culture has stopped in it's tracks abusers and institutions who have essentially abused for decades but have gotten away with it because each of the dozens of cases were treated and isolated as individual instances. Certain movie directors. A certain finance guru and friend to powerful people. The Roman Catholic church.

 

Previously individual survivors isolated from each other either had to deal with the issues on their own or be called mentally ill or a liar.

[Unofficial Who]

2 minutes ago, Phelan said:

People can can work their ass off and do nothing wrong for twenty years and a rumour can kill their career or their life. 

 

And yet women (and some men) can end up leaving their chosen fields or end their lives when abusive men are left to continue abusing. A small number of abusive men can over time create a massive negative impact for society as a whole. How do we balance that out?

[John0]

2 hours ago, Eighthours said:

I would ask one question. If an allegation is false but accepted by the #metoo' movement on social media, how does the accused resolve it?

 

Don't know if anyone has followed the whole ProJared thing at all (I only realised it had happened when I clicked on the video below)? But this question reminded me of it a lot. I have only really seen Jared's side of the story, so I don't know the ins and outs at all. But this is his response to the allegations leveled against him (I don't want to call them false objectively or anything, so wasn't quite sure how to word this).

 

 

[Rev]

3 hours ago, Eighthours said:

I would ask one question. If an allegation is false but accepted by the #metoo' movement on social media, how does the accused resolve it?

 

They take the accuser to court for slander and require an apology as part of the settlement. 

 

[PaB]

13 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

They take the accuser to court for slander and require an apology as part of the settlement. 

 

Do you think that cancels out the damage done?

[Rev]

1 minute ago, PeteBrant said:

Do you think that cancels out the damage done?

 

They'll be awarded damages for the amount of damage done. So, yes.

[rafaqat]

35 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

They'll be awarded damages for the amount of damage done. So, yes.

 

What's the going rate for being called a pedo for the majority of your life or knowing that your life is being affected by people making decisions who haven't seen that you won the slander case?

 

 

 

[rafaqat]

2 hours ago, Sane said:

In reality there are not 10 innocents brought down for each guilty one though. If anything the amount of innocent men being accused of abuse is a fraction of the amount of guilty men. Of course there's no way to prove this, but we all know it's true. It doesn't solve the dilemma but it does place it in a more honest context.

 

 

Time for me to also be pedantic.   You can't know something to be true if you have no way to prove it.  You merely have an opinion. One that could be wrong .

 

That doesn't mean I disagree with your general view though.

 

 

[Unofficial Who]

Just now, rafaqat said:

Time for me to also be pedantic.   You can't know something to be true if you have no way to prove it.  You merely have an opinion. One that could be wrong .

 

 

Which kind of means that survivors of abuse  are back in the "deal with it / don't talk about it" place. Because unless you report it within 24 hours and there's still physical evidence than there's nothing.

[rafaqat]

1 minute ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

Which kind of means that survivors of abuse  are back in the "deal with it / don't talk about it" place. Because unless you report it within 24 hours and there's still physical evidence than there's nothing.

 

My comment was more around Sane claiming it's clearly true that more guilty men are accused than innocent men even though there's no way to prove it.   I agree with him . I'm just saying you can't state it's 100% truth/fact.

 

 

With regards to your comment,  you have to believe people when they make an accusation but if there's no proof what do you expect the authorities to do though when it's just one persons word against the other?   What would be the correct response from the authorities when faced with that and an investigation reveals nothing?

 

[PaB]

49 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

They'll be awarded damages for the amount of damage done. So, yes.

How do you quanitify the damage done to your reputation amongst friends and peers? What number do you put on that? ( assuming You can actually afford to take it to court).

 

Surely the way to avoid all that is to fix the system at the point of accusation. I.e make reporting to HR/Police etc a system that works. Because a system, of public outing on social media is not the answer.

[Rev]

8 minutes ago, rafaqat said:

 

What's the going rate for being called a pedo for the majority of your life or knowing that your life is being affected by people making decisions who haven't seen that you won the slander case?

 

 

 

 

I don't think they set "going rates". Do you think they should?

 

Also, if someone subsequently calls someone a paedophile after that person has already successfully sued someone who made a similar accusation, they'll be finding themselves in court pretty quickly.