Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Bacon Horsemeat]

16 hours ago, The Bag said:

This is not the way anyone would have wanted any of this to go.  Any one who followed Alec’s personal twitter could see he hadn’t been doing well for a long time, way before this past week.

 

 

So great timing for releasing rape allegations, then. What did they think was going to happen?

 

Same with this Ken guy, do you really think hounding someone who has just had abuse allegations thrown at them going to end well?

 

If there is abuse, take it to a tribunal, a lawyer, police, anything but to turn the mob on the target.

[GamesGamesGames]

8 minutes ago, Bacon Horsemeat said:

If there is abuse, take it to a tribunal, a lawyer, police, anything but to turn the mob on the target.

 

If you're aware of how slowly these wheels turn, and you're wanting to warn people in the here and now...that's a very difficult, thankless moral call to make.

 

Edit: Noting of course that the mob is a by-product of the action, not the root intent.

[Unofficial Who]

18 minutes ago, Bacon Horsemeat said:

 

So great timing for releasing rape allegations, then. What did they think was going to happen?

 

Same with this Ken guy, do you really think hounding someone who has just had abuse allegations thrown at them going to end well?

 

If there is abuse, take it to a tribunal, a lawyer, police, anything but to turn the mob on the target.

 

See my posts a page back on this. We seem to be defaulting constantly to a place where survivors of abuse or assault have to constantly police everything they say in order to protect the welfare and reputation of the alleged abuser. What should survivors of abuse do in order to warn others and to try and break the cycle of abuse?

 

What is the correct way for a survivor to do when they don't want others hurt, when they don't want the other party arrested (or in some cases can't)?

 

Or if they're looking for the support of knowing that they weren't alone, that it wasn't all in their heads. That others had the same experience?

 

[Harsin]

Wait, is he seriously suggesting that rape victims need to be more thoughtful about their rapist's mental well-being and keep it to themselves?

[Unofficial Who]

26 minutes ago, Harsin said:

Wait, is he seriously suggesting that rape victims need to be more thoughtful about their rapist's mental well-being and keep it to themselves?

 

I'm going to assume I've misread what he was trying to communicate there.

[Talk Show Host]

4 hours ago, Bacon Horsemeat said:

 

So great timing for releasing rape allegations, then. What did they think was going to happen?

 

Same with this Ken guy, do you really think hounding someone who has just had abuse allegations thrown at them going to end well?

 

If there is abuse, take it to a tribunal, a lawyer, police, anything but to turn the mob on the target.

 

To a what? Sexual harassment is extremely difficult to prove and extremely difficult to accuse someone of, especially someone with significant more power than you. Rape or attempted rape or sexual assault is also very difficult to prove, especially when years have passed by. If you add how difficult it is to come out with these allegations as a person and the fact that sexual harassment is not even a crime in the states and most countries in the world, you should at least take into consideration how few choices -if any- the victims have. 

 

Why do you think that psychologists and most of the times HR and support groups urge for victims to come out and reveal what happened to them? Because it's extremely difficult to do anything else that will actually bring them justice and peace. 

 

 

[Kryptonian]

4 hours ago, Harsin said:

Wait, is he seriously suggesting that rape victims need to be more thoughtful about their rapist's mental well-being and keep it to themselves?

 

It’s certainly a strange point to put forward.

[PaB]

8 hours ago, Harsin said:

Wait, is he seriously suggesting that rape victims need to be more thoughtful about their rapist's mental well-being and keep it to themselves?

He probably thinks twitter is not the best platform to make rape allegations . And he’s right . Of course all these allegations should be taken seriously , but I really don’t get the use of twitter as the medium . Absolutely no good can come from it . For the accuser or the accused .

[jonamok]

I imagine there is some thought of warning away other potential victims (who aren't in the accuser's circle of contacts) from the abuser?

[PaB]

7 minutes ago, jonamok said:

I imagine there is some thought of warning away other potential victims (who aren't in the accuser's circle of contacts) from the abuser?

Possibly . I’m not altogether comfortable with that method being via a public forum . It’s difficult because obviously there is an element of accusations being made public encouraging other victims to come forward .e.g. the Weinstein case. But at the same time I think of people like Christopher Jeffries . 

It’s a complex issue for sure .

[Alex W.]

One of the things that has come out of this on Twitter - and which is familiar from other communities with similar problems - is that there already is a large, quiet, informal “whisper network” of women in all levels of that field doing hard emotional and interpersonal labour to help protect women from known abusers without having to go public at enormous consequence to the victim and the accused.

 

When you ask what the alternative* is, it already exists, and it’s enormously, cosmically unfair. And it’s troubling that it’s sexual abuse of women, something with a pathetically low rate of actually being addressed by the justice system, that is supposed to get this special treatment where you absolutely must never talk about it.

 

* To going public

[Rudderless]

20 minutes ago, jonamok said:

I imagine there is some thought of warning away other potential victims (who aren't in the accuser's circle of contacts) from the abuser?

 

That's exactly it. There's been a lot of talk this week about women having to rely on 'whisper networks' to avoid abusers, but that only goes so far, particularly when it's young women coming into the industry who don't have those connections - and who are more at risk from these men. I'm not convinced that Twitter is the best medium for a whole lot of things, really, but it seems there's a distinct lack of alternatives to making sure those most at risk are aware of who to be careful around. 

 

EDIT: I started typing this reply out before seeing Alex W's post. 

[Alex W.]

On the gripping hand, if you want this to be respectfully addressed by formal and impartial justice systems, those systems need to start working.

[PaB]

10 hours ago, Alex W. said:

On the gripping hand, if you want this to be respectfully addressed by formal and impartial justice systems, those systems need to start working.

That doesn’t necessarily help people affected , either accused or accuser . We have the system we have .

 

The thing is a twitter allegation makes it public . It’s the same as the Christopher Jeffires arrest . It an incredibly difficult subject . On balance it certainly seems that Alex had questions to answer , but I’m not hugely comfortable with that court being held in public . We live in an democracy and legal system where you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law with a right to fair trial , and that includes rape and sexual assault . This can ruin people’s lives . 

Of course allegations should be treated seriously , that’s beyond question and every allegation should be investigated . But, using twitter as the platform to make those allegations  could skew the right to a fair trial . It’s why judges make statements preventing people discussing elements of a case in public . What happens if someone called to jury is swayed by pressure from twitter posts ?

There is a very real threat of cases being undermined by social media posts . 

[Rudderless]

1 hour ago, PeteBrant said:

That doesn’t necessarily help people affected , either accused or accuser . We have the system we have .

 

The thing is a twitter allegation makes it public . It’s the same as the Christopher Yates arrest . It an incredibly difficult subject . On balance it certainly seems that Alex had questions to answer , but I’m not hugely comfortable with that court being held in public . We live in an democracy and legal system where you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law with a right to fair trial , and that includes rape and sexual assault . This can ruin people’s lives . 

Of course allegations should be treated seriously , that’s beyond question and every allegation should be investigated . But, using twitter as the platform to make those allegations  could skew the right to a fair trial . It’s why judges make statements preventing people discussing elements of a case in public . What happens if someone called to jury is swayed by pressure from twitter posts ?

There is a very real threat of cases being undermined by social media posts . 

 

Cases could be undermined by social media posts, true, but no one's pursuing charges here - this action has been taken to prevent other people from being harmed. Several women came forward with allegations, some of which were corroborated, others of which were supported by former colleagues suggesting it fits a pattern of behaviour they've experienced. If all of those accusations were untrue, then Holowka would no doubt have had some kind of legal recourse. We've already had Alexis Kennedy threatening legal action against his accusers, though he's since gone silent after more and more people have come forward with reports about him. 

 

[replicant]

2 hours ago, PeteBrant said:

He probably thinks twitter is not the best platform to make rape allegations . And he’s right . Of course all these allegations should be taken seriously , but I really don’t get the use of twitter as the medium . Absolutely no good can come from it . For the accuser or the accused .

 

In complete agreement. The use of Twitter, IMO, is not an appropriate course of action.  As far as I'm concerned it is trial by social media based.  It goes against the principle of innocent until proven guilty.  

 

 

[Alex W.]

7 hours ago, PeteBrant said:

That doesn’t necessarily help people affected , either accused or accuser . We have the system we have .

 

I'm not sure I follow. At the moment it's generally accepted that the criminal justice systems in essentially every country, and heck, most professional organisations,* are biased against the recording, investigation, and prosecution of such cases, which is a/the big reason why whisper networks - which inevitably leak out in to the public sphere as in this case - have become the de facto system for protecting women. I think improving formal systems definitely helps the accuser and others in similar vulnerable positions, and if you want something other than informal social structures to handle the accused, the accused as well.

 

*Almost nobody gets disinvited from a prominent conference, or loses a prominent leadership/oversight role, for anything short of a successful criminal prosecution against them. Or even that.

[Alex W.]

6 hours ago, replicant said:

 

In complete agreement. The use of Twitter, IMO, is not an appropriate course of action.  As far as I'm concerned it is trial by social media based.  It goes against the principle of innocent until proven guilty.  

 

 

 

Which would be a reasonable point if the object of the exercise were to impose punishment, but it isn't. 

[Talk Show Host]

8 hours ago, PeteBrant said:

He probably thinks twitter is not the best platform to make rape allegations . And he’s right . Of course all these allegations should be taken seriously , but I really don’t get the use of twitter as the medium . Absolutely no good can come from it . For the accuser or the accused .

 

What about the MeToo movement, which exposed powerful sex offenders and helped clear the movie industry at least a little bit? 

[NickC]

My sister was raped way before Twitter came about. Before the (successful, thankfully) trial, police advised her against prosecuting the rapist because the chance of him being convicted was so low. They weren't being horrible about it, they were incredibly supportive I believe, they were just being honest. Women just aren't believed, not to the extent men are.

 

For every Christopher Jefferies there's a Trump, Weinstein or Saville - people willing to use the law to continue their abuse unchallenged. Twitter isn't perfect by any means, but until we have equality here - and we're a long way from that - it feels unfair to strip women of a clear warning system. Because once they find themselves in one of these awful situations, it's too late and there's often not much they can do to get out.

 

The idea that women shouldn't speak out unless they go through the 'right' channels reminds me of The Handmaiden's Tale, with women expected to stand in silence and obedience in a world that abuses them but is uninterested in their welfare. "But who can remember pain, once it’s over? All that remains of it is a shadow, not in the mind even, in the flesh. Pain marks you, but too deep to see. Out of sight, out of mind."

[Alex W.]

To lay out my thoughts as clearly as possible:

 

1) A legal and professional system where almost no accusation is investigated and almost no investigation leads to action harms both accuser (no action) and any wrongfully accused (hyper-sensitisation to any action that does take place).

 

2) It is beyond the pale that this hyper-defensive “no public accusation until an investigation has proven guilt” shit only ever gets trotted out when women say they’ve been assaulted or abused. 

[K]

Chris Jefferies is probably a bad example in this context, as he wasn’t falsely accused of a crime by someone who purported to be the victim of that crime; he was heavily implied to be a murderer by the press. There was an element of jaded hacks, who’d lost any connection to the human subjects of their stories, playing a kind of cunt’s Cluedo and feeding the public’s desire to see a whodunnit play out with real people, but the main incentive there was just to sell newspapers. I don’t see any real profit motive in any of these instances of women accusing their colleagues of sexual assault – in fact, making such accusations publicly can be hugely damaging to the women who step forward. I think it’s extremely rare that someone makes accusations of sexual assault for selfish or malicious reasons.

[Broker]

On 01/09/2019 at 08:57, Stoppy2000 said:

NEG should be perma banned. He's only just returned from a 30 day ban for being racist and he clearly didn't use that time to educate himself.

 

On 01/09/2019 at 09:10, moosegrinder said:

It surprised me he only got another 30 day and not a 90.

 

It's always another 30 days, Rllmuk is on a quest to educate him and it won't rest until every woman has left the messageboard.

[replicant]

5 hours ago, Alex W. said:

 

Which would be a reasonable point if the object of the exercise were to impose punishment, but it isn't. 

 

Some would say having your name "out there" in the public space without any evidence is potentially a punishment. People can jump to conclusions based on nothing but a tweet, which maybe false.

 

 

 

 

[centurion]

14 hours ago, jonamok said:

I imagine there is some thought of warning away other potential victims (who aren't in the accuser's circle of contacts) from the abuser?

 

Cleopatra made them into a Eunuch to be enslaved to her brother in full public view, which isn't inhumane at all -- actually, an amazing honour and privilege to be hand picked as one of the divine servants of gods, time, space and whatever other planets were observing their incredible self sacrificing majesty - and in order to really impress upon the public that pharoahs are honourable and noble persons, this deal came with an everlasting promise that not only would the cheeky and passionate citizen serve the stars for all eternity, but any and all of their children and grandchildren, like a race of blessed angels, shining beauty and divinity out onto the world. Ah...

 

The closest we have to this at present is Paul Ogrady. Makeup and warrior-face seem to be old Egyptian. Scary to Romans I guess, and suggests they had a phobia of... German bats?

 

 

[Floshenbarnical]

Maybe this is insensitive as far as Alec’s family goes, but in the immortal words of Mance Rayder: he was my enemy and I’m glad he’s dead.

[Unofficial Who]

46 minutes ago, Floshenbarnical said:

Maybe this is insensitive as far as Alec’s family goes, 

 

This should have been where you stopped.

 

Not helpful, or necessary.

[Unofficial Who]

Speaking of unnecessary, haters of Ms Quinn et al have had a difficult time boosting their message since the subjects of their ire have removed themselves temporarily or permanently from social media.

 

News sites and the Facebook pages of those news sites have come to the rescue and have posted up stories of this sad chapter...leaving the comments open.

 

Great for engagement, brilliant for enabling certain people to boost their message...not so great for giving people room to take a step back perhaps.

 

Edit:Add to that the fire that is the Steam discussion page for Night in the Woods. What on earth is Valve thinking there?

[Broker]

2 hours ago, grindmouse said:

 

All of these imaginary women flocking from the forum, enraged by NEG’s presence, can’t bear to read the same forum as him.

 

NEG consistently being allowed to derail any thread which highlights issues women are facing because the forum is more concerned about educating a horrible man than offering a decent space for women to discuss how they feel creates a hostile atmosphere for female posters. It’s not that hard to understand.

[df0]

So according to your logic if we warn/temp ban/perm ban NEG that results in him doing something drastic, we are at fault? Instead we should put up with thread derailments because that is the best outcome for all parties involved?