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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

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1 hour ago, Mentazm said:

I recommend you watch some Adam Curtis.

 

I recommend you watch some Richard Curtis.

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4 hours ago, Mentazm said:

 

I can't reply to defend myself as this thread is a safe space for those who fear male sexuality. Well done on enforcing your echo chamber rllmuk. Humanity will all be a grey sexless sludge soon enough.

 

And in the meantime Anita starts another series pointing out the obvious that everyone already knows to make us feel bad and make more money and you'll applaud her.

 

I fucking love my sexuality. I hate stupid bigots, though. Ain't life grand.

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20 minutes ago, Benny said:

What if you love hate-sex with stupid bigots?

Why are you even asking that question? I also hate stupid-sex with love bigots! I've got it all covered.

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25 minutes ago, geekette said:

See, you've made a rookie error there. You've said that only a negative stereotype is problematic. I can't blame you, because I asked a similar question myself in a different context many years ago on this very forum (in my case about the stereotype of black men having large dicks). The fact that women in games (and films and other media) are sexualised, and the camera angles constantly focus on their breasts and bums, and they are dressed in impractical scanty clothing and that this is entirely normalised within the medium is problematic, whether the women look "nice" or "attractive" or not.

 

The Oatmeal recently did a long strip on the Backfire Effect. Basically, our first instinct when hearing contradictory information to one of our beliefs is to double down on them. We disregard the new information, or try to prove them wrong. Being able to see the other side to an established belief is tricky, and often presenting evidence makes people retreat further into their confirmatory peer group, cover their ears and go "lalalala I'm not listening". That's what we've seen in gamergate and the reemergence of regressive politics we've seen of late.

I agree that women being overly sexualised is an issue. rampant. massive issue. specially where I am from. the world record holder for beauty pageant winners. :( I worry about my daughter. and I worry about the things I might carry that I don't even notice because of where I grew up. also, the problem appears to be getting worse and not better in popular media. and I think the internet also makes it worse. with plastic surgery now thrown into the mix of pop culture and women role models now have fake breast AND bums. or women in their 20s getting Botox injections. 

 

but I worry that the feminist movement is overcompensating almost penalising women for being feminine. or sexy (like the example of Emma Watson's breast photos). I would want my daughter to be proud of her south american bum ^_^ and not worrying about making sure that it is never in the middle of the shot. I think the goal of being equals is somewhat misguided. instead women should be proud of the ways in which they are different. I think you are right about stereotypes though. and I hadn't thought about it that way. 

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23 hours ago, Illyria said:

 I vividly remember how she criticized Baby It's Cold Outside for being a bit rapey, you know. 

 

Wait what, she's responsible for the Baby It's Cold Outside Thing? Jesus that remains the single most unhinged thing I've ever heard - and before people cry Oatmeal, there are a hundred articles from both genders agreeing with me from a dozen different angles. 

 

Someone did a "safe" version. It's an abomination and probably directly responsible for Trump. 

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9 hours ago, geekette said:

Well lets stick with your daughter for a moment. Let me imagine that she reaches adulthood and has an opinion on something and wants to talk on telly about it. If the camera is focused on her tits or her bum, rather than presenting her face, that would seem kind of disrespectful and diminish her message, right? If a TV producer offered her a role on the basis that they'd show a shot of her bum in the opening credits, would that not be demeaning rather than a compliment on her lovely bum? If she was given screen time until she was 28 but then passed over constantly for a less educated but younger and therefore more "attractive" person to talk on the same topic or do the same job, that would be unfair and diminish the value of her knowledge and experience. Right?

 

Good grief, you've really stretched these scenarios to breaking point to illustrate your point. 

The wayward cameraman would be sacked. The producer would now be up before a Beeb tribunal and at age 28 being put out to pasture is ludicrous.

 

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@geekette Some great points there. One (comic) example of objectifying the male form on tv is the 8/10 Cats do Countdown models. They do overplay the 'attractive so must be thick aspect' somewhat but it does stand out.

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12 hours ago, geekette said:

The problem isn't that women aren't allowed to be sexy, or that feminists want to erase all gender differences, the point is that when it comes to knowledge of a topic, or deserving a job or a promotion, the attractiveness of your bum or how much cleavage you show should be irrelevant. Feminists penalising women for being feminine is something that isn't happening - you've internalised a straw feminist that doesn't exist in reality or at least doesn't represent the huge numbers of people that are actually feminist and simply want equal rights, equal pay, equal respect and equal bodily autonomy for women. Read back my first paragraph and try to imagine the equivalent happening to a man. Ever seen a man forecasting the weather or assisting the host on a quiz be cast for appearance and have gratuitous bum or crotch shots? Ever seen a man over 50 replaced by a younger model based on looks alone? If you haven't, don't you ever wonder how that fits with the idea that it is feminists penalising women for being feminine or sexy, rather than the patriarchal society that already existed long before feminism?

well I am basing this on comments I have read from some people in the community. such as Emma Watson (of heforshe fame which I support). a few months ago when her photo was published in a magazine and a portion of her boobs were showing she received apparently insults to dead threats on twitter, even causing her to respond publicly. same thing for her role on beauty and the beast in which she portraits an intellectual, self-sufficient and strong woman, who happens to be attractive.

 

and also based partially on that video from tropes lady. in which she overplays camera placement in video games which has to go behind the player for game-play reasons. for both for male and female characters. I think the core of her argument was that the clothes male characters were wearing did not emphasise their butt, whereas female characters wore tight trousers, that emphasise their curves.

 

I wanted to point out that I don't think that is a problem. women and men can dress differently and still have equal rights, pay, voice, etc. in your real life role, have you ever felt like you have to dress a bit like a guy to be taken as a equal? or do you feel it does not matter anymore? just curious. I have found women in my company for example dress kind of all the same. and sort of mimicking the way men dress. I hope we get to a point where that does not matter at all. and women can come to work and be taken as an equal regardless of the pink bow on their head. I want my daughter to have both. be proud of being a feminine woman (or even manly if she chooses to be) AND be taken as an equal (or superior as I am sure she'll be :D)

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Why would clothes be necessary for any job role? May as well all come to work naked.

 

Would you rather wear a suit and tie or something? Should businesses not have a dress code? Does it offend you that someone could recognize you as female from afar?

 

Tsk
 

Spoiler

Oh, and I disagree on feminism not being frowned on, it is. Same will go for Men however. I can't wait until Superman is re-modeled into a wimpish body.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, geekette said:

And you think this abuse was from feminists?

I am sure it came from various sources. the internet and specially twitter are (as we all know) a terrible place for this. but let's all face it. sadly, it partially came from the feminist community. I will give you an example. Julie Hartley-Brewer (who has written things I have found rather compelling) tweeted: Emma Watson: "Feminism, feminism... gender wage gap... why oh why am I not taken seriously... feminism... oh, and here are my tits!"

 

37 minutes ago, geekette said:

So you don't think the costumes or camera angles in video games sexualize female characters more than male ones?

they do sexualize female characters more than male ones (by a mile) when they are non-playable characters. and this is a huge problem. specially on Japanese games. because they assume (sadly maybe rightly in instances) that this is what men want. but when we are talking about the playable character I would argue this seldom is the case. unless you go back to games that came out 20 years ago. 

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12 hours ago, Oz said:

I am sure it came from various sources. the internet and specially twitter are (as we all know) a terrible place for this. but let's all face it. sadly, it partially came from the feminist community. I will give you an example. Julie Hartley-Brewer (who has written things I have found rather compelling) tweeted: Emma Watson: "Feminism, feminism... gender wage gap... why oh why am I not taken seriously... feminism... oh, and here are my tits!"

Feminism is not a single homogenous viewpoint. If one feminist says something that doesn't speak for the whole of feminism. There are various strands of feminism and some of them are sex positive and body positive. I think Russell Brand happened to deal with this one quite well:

 

But also Emma herself expresses it pretty clearly and articulately:

As she says "feminism is about choice" and "it is not a stick to beat other women with". She can show some of her skin without that undermining her intellect or politics. Listen here also about the implied coercive power of feminists to tell people they are doing femininity wrong.

 

Quote

they do sexualize female characters more than male ones (by a mile) when they are non-playable characters. and this is a huge problem. specially on Japanese games. because they assume (sadly maybe rightly in instances) that this is what men want. but when we are talking about the playable character I would argue this seldom is the case. unless you go back to games that came out 20 years ago. 

I disagree. Quiet was scantily clad in 2015 MGS. Street Fighter V was last year, not some historic artefact. Dead or Alive still exists, and beach volley ball now comes with sexual assault modes for VR. Final fantasy still has anatomically impossible female characters.

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3 minutes ago, geekette said:

Feminism is not a single homogenous viewpoint. If one feminist says something that doesn't speak for the whole of feminism. There are various strands of feminism and some of them are sex positive and body positive.

so you think she was the one feminist with that view? I don't want to be contrarian. I agree with your viewpoint so much. I think we agree about nearly everything (minus that one thing you pointed out above:D). I just want to be critical of the strand of feminism that does not subscribe to being sex and body positive. and acknowledge that sadly this is a chunk of people and not a few. I would argue they do not help the cause. I think Emma Watson and Russell Brand do wonders for the cause. they are just extremely smart people. 

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22 minutes ago, geekette said:

I disagree. Quiet was scantily clad in 2015 MGS. Street Fighter V was last year, not some historic artefact. Dead or Alive still exists, and beach volley ball now comes with sexual assault modes. Final fantasy still has anatomically impossible female characters.

I think these examples are in the minority is all (maybe not quite "seldom"). but also I have played none of those games (except maybe for a bit of FFV) so maybe that is another thing that I should consider. my sampling is biased as I have only played the games I have wanted to play. but there is no excuse for any of those. its an embarrassment to me as a "gamer". so I will let you take that one. :D

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At least I'm willing to engage.

 

She just stated that feminism isn't being frowned on and then states DOA, SF5 and FF in a pretty much frowned on view. That we should be embarrassed by such games.

 

But don't worry, because those games should exist and no one is telling them not to make or censor them. Promise. :rolleyes:

 

The fantasy of body builds shouldn't be a crime. Yes, no one in real life should aim for non-realism, I understand the harm that has done to many, but it's worth remembering fantasy is one of the reasons we play games. Street Fighter wouldn't be what it is without Chun-Li.

 

Edit: And before I break into a rant which causes people to confuse what I'm saying again, I'll stop here for today.

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19 minutes ago, DukeOfEarlsfield said:

:lol:

 

I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh. If you put JH-B in a room with a bunch of feminists and then switched all the lights off the chances of her escaping with her life would be approximately nil.

 

She's a reactionary bigot. A younger Anne Widdecombe. Nigel Farage with tits.

 

She's the 'thinking man's' Katie Hopkins. And the thinking is in scare quotes quite deliberately.

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I think these examples are in the minority is all (maybe not quite "seldom"). but also I have played none of those games (except maybe for a bit of FFV) so maybe that is another thing that I should consider. my sampling is biased as I have only played the games I have wanted to play. but there is no excuse for any of those. its an embarrassment to me as a "gamer". so I will let you take that one. [emoji3]


They are all Japanese games.
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One of my journalist colleagues who I regularly transcribe gaming-related interviews for just came to me with an hour long interview about Anita Sarkeesian and women and gaming generally. Nothing I can share on here sadly, but I'm so happy he decided to cover this!

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On 5/6/2017 at 16:02, NEG said:

At least I'm willing to engage.

Ok, I'll take you at your word. You're just unable to engage.
I mean, fucking hell, I've tried.

Once more, with feeling...
 

On 5/6/2017 at 16:02, NEG said:

But don't worry, because those games should exist and no one is telling them not to make or censor them. Promise. :rolleyes:

 

The fantasy of body builds shouldn't be a crime.... [etc.]

NOBODY IS SAYING POOR DEPICTIONS OF WOMEN SHOULD BE CENSORED OR MADE CRIMINAL. LITERALLY NOBODY. FOR FUCK'S SAKE, NEG, YOU'VE BEEN TOLD THIS ON AT LEAST FOUR OCCASIONS OVER THE PAST YEAR. CRITICISM IS NOT CENSORSHIP.

 

READ. UNDERSTAND!

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4 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

Ok, I'll take you at your word. You're just unable to engage.
I mean, fucking hell, I've tried.

Once more, with feeling...
 

NOBODY IS SAYING POOR DEPICTIONS OF WOMEN SHOULD BE CENSORED OR MADE CRIMINAL. LITERALLY NOBODY. FOR FUCK'S SAKE, NEG, YOU'VE BEEN TOLD THIS ON AT LEAST FOUR OCCASIONS OVER THE PAST YEAR. CRITICISM IS NOT CENSORSHIP.

 

READ. UNDERSTAND!

 

Hence the sarcasm that it seems you've clearly missed? I even put rolling eyes for you this time. As in: this is what they'll respond with, despite still wishing it not to exist anyway with their constant pushing/examples cited. It's an opinion.

 

You can try the Bold option next time if you like.

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6 minutes ago, NEG said:

 

Hence the sarcasm that it seems you've clearly missed?

I didn't miss it, that's why I addressed it as I did. Otherwise I would have said "yes, you're right, nobody is saying that. High-five!"

 

6 minutes ago, NEG said:

As in: this is what they'll respond with, despite still wishing it not to exist anyway. It's an opinion.

Wanting things to be better is not wishing for censorship, or criminal charges. You are conflating the two and you've been told this multiple times, so why are you still doing it?

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