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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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Probably been discussed here before, but discovered Thunderf00t's channel  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmb8hO2ilV9vRa8cilis88A 

 

I was watching his debunking video about some new scuba gear, and saw he had lots of videos that was sort of relevant to this topic. 

Probably been discussed here before, but discovered Thunderf00t's channel  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmb8hO2ilV9vRa8cilis88A 

 

I was watching his debunking video about some new scuba gear, and saw he had lots of videos that was sort of relevant to this topic. 

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6 hours ago, elmo said:

the Destiny example is a interesting one. The sit animation is weird when it's pointed out but for some reason I can't see a woman sitting down, legs apart like the men's animation. I'm not sure if that's my own fucked up issue or just a natural male/female thing.

 

 

It's certainly reflecting reality - though I know quite a few men who sit down with their legs to the side instead - but is this because women are told it's inelegant to sit with their knees apart from a young age?  Looking at https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sitting+down+for+a+picnic&safe=strict&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=1109&tbm=isch there are some female examples of crossed legs, but fewer than men.

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1 hour ago, SqueakyG said:

 

Riiiiiiiiiight.

 

This is tough because I absolutely hold the principle: "Listen and believe". This person did indeed win a human rights case against her employer. I have no reason to doubt that she has experienced rape and harrassment.

 

However, her writing sounds like the ramblings of a fantasist. As written, these events sound like exaggerations or fabrications, with an extreme persecution bias. I hate writing that -- it's my moral duty to listen and believe people's experiences of sexual harrassment. But it would also serve her cause much better if her writing didn't sound like it does.

 

I'm sure I sound cold and heartless: if you'd been date-raped, sexually harrassed and assaulted, I'm sure you wouldn't be able to speak clinically or impartially about it. You'd speak emotionally. I get that. But there's a point when my bullshit detector goes off, you know? A person who remembers ther experiences with that dialogue is a person with credibility problems.

 

 

I can totally believe that a victim of sexual assualt years later would be able to speak clincally about the experience. It's a way of distancing yourself from it because otherwise what you'd be typing would be unintelligable. It's a problem with text in that it's hard to detect tone and it's difficult to know if it was written in one stint or (more likely given the way it jumps around) written over the course of several hours, days or weeks.

 

And of course that's the trap. If she'd have written emotionally (but in a way that was still legible) she'd still be open to the criticism of being a fantasist because hey, she's being too emotional amirite? And it's the damned if you do damned if you don't sort of thing that leads to people shutting up about sexual harrassment and abuse because the wisdom seems to be that the only innocent victims are the ones who don't speak out about it themselves.

 

Also after one or two assualts, yeah, you would come across as having a persecution bias. It sounds to me that she might have been at risk as a child / teen. Sexual predators tend to look for those who are vunerable and who are less likely to be believed because that's how they get away with this sort of thing for years.

 

I'm inclined to believe her story.

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34 minutes ago, Tofu said:

Probably been discussed here before, but discovered Thunderf00t's channel  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmb8hO2ilV9vRa8cilis88A 

 

I was watching his debunking video about some new scuba gear, and saw he had lots of videos that was sort of relevant to this topic. 

Probably been discussed here before, but discovered Thunderf00t's channel  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmb8hO2ilV9vRa8cilis88A 

 

I was watching his debunking video about some new scuba gear, and saw he had lots of videos that was sort of relevant to this topic. 

 

He's the guy who stalked Anita for a while isn't he? I'm not giving him my time.

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24 minutes ago, Tofu said:

Probably been discussed here before, but discovered Thunderf00t's channel  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmb8hO2ilV9vRa8cilis88A 

 

I was watching his debunking video about some new scuba gear, and saw he had lots of videos that was sort of relevant to this topic. 

 

Yeah, he's kind of notorious. He was a very successful atheist Youtuber, but he's also one of those people who completely loses their mind when gender issues come up. He was briefly on Freethought Blogs (which is where I first ran into him) and he basically spent his entire tenure ranting about how feminism is stupid, sexual harassment isn't a thing, and the network was a bunch of idiots ruled over by fascists, until he was unsurprisingly kicked back off it. Apparently this was a crime against humanity.

 

He's one of the key figures in "im smort ∴ feminsim not real" movement.

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I always thought thunderfoot and Milo were somehow in league with each other but that might just be lumping eejits together. Either way, I wouldn't watch his videos on anything to do with women or feminism.

 

He might be great at scuba gear reviews but he-who-shall-not-be-named was famously 'into' (or should I say wrapped up in, ba-dum tish) scuba :D

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9 minutes ago, Kelthink said:

 

He's the guy who stalked Anita for a while isn't he? I'm not giving him my time.

 

I wasn't aware of this, any more information about this.

13 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

 

Yeah, he's kind of notorious. He was a very successful atheist Youtuber, but he's also one of those people who completely loses their mind when gender issues come up. He was briefly on Freethought Blogs (which is where I first ran into him) and he basically spent his entire tenure ranting about how feminism is stupid, sexual harassment isn't a thing, and the network was a bunch of idiots ruled over by fascists, until he was unsurprisingly kicked back off it. Apparently this was a crime against humanity.

 

He's one of the key figures in "im smort ∴ feminsim not real" movement.

 

He does point out some interesting facts though, however, I agree he is some what absolutely dismissive of Anita's work. 

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Having seen Anita's latest video I had the following thoughts.

 

-The hip movement being down to high heels. I. Had. No. Idea. I just assumed most women moved their hips like that regardless of whether or not they wore flats or heels. I've never been much of a leg person so I've only ever really seen it in media, in real life I'm usually not looking down there. Eye opening (at just how dumb I am.)

 

-Bayonetta is a problematic example as the retort to criticism is that she's designed for the female gaze by her creator. I don't really have a veiw on this except that I'm too embarrassed to put Bayonetta on when my partner is at home. Which probably says everything that needs to be said.

 

-Catwoman is a hugely difficult case. Catwoman is pretty much a trope and has been for 60 years, arguably she's all about using the male gaze against men (but let's face it, her presence in media is all about feeding the male gaze.) Playing as Catwoman in Arkham City was interesting for two reasons. One was the constant awful cat calling by everyone in the game which was awful and reinforced terrible real world experiences for female players. However, I wonder if some male players realised what it was like to be constantly on the recieving end of such attention? In a way (before it was patched) for guys it could have been a useful tool in player empathy. Even better though was

the amazing fake ending where you can as Catwoman leave Batman to his fate and leave the city with a briefcase full of cash complete with a fake end credits sequence. So good I actually remember this over the real ending of the game.

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1 hour ago, Tofu said:

 

I wasn't aware of this, any more information about this.

 

He does point out some interesting facts though, however, I agree he is some what absolutely dismissive of Anita's work. 

 

I was wrong, he merely had/has a weird obsession with her stuff. He has encouraged fans to doxx/harrass various internet feminists, though.

 

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27 minutes ago, Kelthink said:

 

I was wrong, he merely had/has a weird obsession with her stuff. He has encouraged fans to doxx/harrass various internet feminists, though.

 

I was wrong, he merely had/has a weird obsession with her stuff. He has encouraged fans to doxx/harrass various internet feminists, though.

 

Don't think he encouraged his fans to do, from watching a good chunk of his videos all he does is rant.

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I gather gators are peeved about the new Baldur's Gate expansion* having a trans character?

 

*Yes, that's really something that has been made in 2016.

I gather gators are peeved about the new Baldur's Gate expansion* having a trans character?

 

*Yes, that's really something that has been made in 2016.

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It's more that they are angry that a woman with public views on inserting a trans character into a popular games series has been allowed to tarnish the sanctity of storytelling in video games by saying she doesn't care what they think about her reasons for doing so. Also there is a line where a character says:

 

Quote

“Reeeeaaally, it’s all about ethics in heroic adventuring.”

 

And as you can imagine, the thin-skinned nature of this easily triggered 'movement' means they are apoplectic about that.

 

This Breitbart article is very informative on the issue, if you remember that the opinion is coming from Bizarro-world: http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/04/04/developers-response-to-baldurs-gate-controversy-misses-the-point/

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Someone has just reminded me about what I was trying to post last week when the forum came down with a response to the sacking of Alison Rapp.

 

 

 

Relevant bit from 3 min onwards.

 

There's also a column here from Jim Sterling about the affair.

 

http://www.thejimquisition.com/nintendos-corporate-culture/

 

 

Quote

 

Anyway, Nintendo itself claims the firing had nothing to do with the harassment of Rapp or pressure from Third Party Individuals, instead claiming she was working another job that did not fall in line with the company’s “corporate culture.” Whether or not this reasoning is legitimate is up to you, though a lot of people have called bullshit on it.

This isn’t about that, though. Whether or not Alison was fired due to external pressure or working another job isn’t the part that I find disappointing. Not so much as the fact Nintendo never had their employee’s back during months of vicious behavior aimed squarely at her.

 

While people were doing whatever they could to ruin this person’s life, Nintendo never stepped in or said a thing. Instead, Rapp’s account suggests the company was actively trying to bury her and indirectly reward those who have made a hobby of punishing women who dare get noticed.

 

Before the termination, Rapp was quietly moved away from public promotion of games, her bosses deciding she “wasn’t a good representative of the company.” Rather than stand by their employee, the suits of Nintendo decided instead to validate the pearl-clutching around her and treat her as a liability.[/quote]

 

This is where I think Nintendo have made a rod for their own back for two reasons.

 

1. There is a snowball's chance in hell of attracting any women to the role in the future.

 

2. The mob now emboldened will do this again and again.

 

And as Jim says earlier in that article

Quote

 

Yesterday, those who worked so diligently to get a woman fired from Nintendo because they didn’t like their version of Fire Emblem got their wish.

 

I’ve not checked yet, but I’m fairly certain American copies of Fates have not suddenly reverted back to their original Japanese forms. I’m also fairly certain Nintendo will continue to edit its content for Western audiences – for good or ill – as it has done for decades.

 

 

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It's more that they are angry that a woman with public views on inserting a trans character into a popular games series has been allowed to tarnish the sanctity of storytelling in video games by saying she doesn't care what they think about her reasons for doing so. Also there is a line where a character says:

 

Quote

“Reeeeaaally, it’s all about ethics in heroic adventuring.”

 

And as you can imagine, the thin-skinned nature of this easily triggered 'movement' means they are apoplectic about that.

 

This Breitbart article is very informative on the issue, if you remember that the opinion is coming from Bizarro-world: http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/04/04/developers-response-to-baldurs-gate-controversy-misses-the-point/

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42 minutes ago, deerokus said:

I gather gators are peeved about the new Baldur's Gate expansion* having a trans character?

 

*Yes, that's really something that has been made in 2016.

 

There are three elements - 

 

A trans individual is available at your base camp to provide the traditional temple functions of healing, resurrection and donation (to improve your popularity) and who promptly reveals their background in a couple of lines if you enquire about their unusual name, but who otherwise plays no part in the game. 

The changes in the characterisation of two female characters, Safana and Jaheira expressed through their inter-team banter.  Can't comment on Jaheira but Safana is certainly entertaining.

The GG baiting line given to Minsc as one of his rare responses, and by rare I mean I haven't yet heard it after 15 or so hours of gameplay.

 

I'll post my impressions of the expansion in the BG thread in due course.

 

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5 hours ago, Alex W. said:

What's so far-fetched about any of that? The anecdote about the 40K players sounds like the kind of follow-the-head-beard brainlessness I've seen in plenty of nerd environments.

What's so far-fetched about any of that? The anecdote about the 40K players sounds like the kind of follow-the-head-beard brainlessness I've seen in plenty of nerd environments.

 

She claims Wyrd games are targeting her, then requests people email and phone the company. Here's the response from their guy in charge 

 

 

'Yeah, I've read this, and we've seen the same thing from this individual last year when she expressed herself in our forums (you can easily find it if you really want to read through all that vitriol) and then took it upon herself to hound after my employees to demand a direct talk with myself, how I am responsible for stepping up to make certain the community at large (the whole of gaming and geek society, not just Malifaux) is policed, and to bring her on board to be the Woman's Ambassador to Gaming and to make certain that Wyrd is doing it right and proper as we're apparently misogynistic asses here. Considering that a large majority of the work force here is female, the males are outnumbered, I sort of kinda doubt we're all running around scratching our crotches and telling the ladies how they do it for us. 

Somewhere in there apparently threats have been issues to her in my name as well as the company's and supposedly that there are copious amounts of evidence that has been made available to the Canadian law authorities as well as the FBI (which apparently were soon to swoop down and confiscate our entire office computers and arrest us if I didn't take the time to take her Skype call). That never happened. We also never received any copies of said evidence so that we could follow up or ban individuals from this end. 

After multiple phone calls, e-mails, etc, etc, etc she and her circle of friends have been told to please do hand over any and all evidence to the authorities as we do not condone or tolerate any behavior of that matter, beyond that, all harassment calls without evidence beyond someones anger at the community could be directed to our on retainer lawyer who would love nothing more than to bill me for the privilege of telling folks legally what and where to go with it and to please bring forth legal evidence so that it can be sorted directly. To date that has never happened, and neither myself, the company or any individuals within it condone such behavior and if we did find someone of that ilk among us, it would be a rather large surprise, and a swift exit out the door to authorities. 

As this issue is almost a year old at this point and I've yet to see any evidence to date, nor been contacted by authorities in any manner, I can only assume that someone is wanting to stir the waters and get attention. I neither know this individual personally nor what has happened in their history, what I do know. is what she has tried to do to this company and community with zero evidence of any misbehavior from anyone at Wyrd.

 

 

 

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He's not going to say 'yeah, we're all misogynistic cunts at Wyrd' though either is he?

 

I can appreciate the probably doesn't want to risk his business etc (even if that is reprehensible if he's remotely 'encouraging' or allowing such behaviour in his shops and so on but to be honest, I'm still inclined to believe her on the whole. Some of it may well be mis-remembered, or written for maximum effect but it's probably more of a stretch to believe that a woman hadn't received loads of grief or been groped in some or all of those communities.

 

GG isn't new, it's just now got a name.

 

If there are guys on here that are over 30 and haven't come across the 'boys club' side of gaming then you may well have not read many gaming magazines over the years or even just thought much of it but I've certainly been guilty of the 'girls aren't PROPER gamers' thing when I was younger and some of that stems from the grief you'd get as a gaming nerd and being "un-cool" from when you're a kid and therefore gaming being a safe haven from those nasty mean girls. This is then reflected in not wanting them to join in because 'they've spoiled everything else' and aren't 'serious gamers' like us nerdy blokes. I thankfully snapped out of it but I can understand the (stupid) thought process that gets you to think GG is a good thing and then to take it to the GG extremes that we are at; that if there is a woman in your game shop, then she's not a proper gamer, or she's actually just a 'slut' like all those other b1tches and is fair game to have a grope.

 

Not that I can ever say this is what happened here with Wyrd or this person, or that in any way thinking like the above is forgiveable due to some perceived grievances due to being unlucky in teenage love (or whatever) but I'd be more surprised if none of this did happen.

 

Having said all that, if she is exaggerating for effect, I don't think she does the cause any good, as if it does turn out to be even slightly un-true, she'll get a bucket of shit poured on her by GG and further stories of this ilk will automatically be perceived to be lies 'just like that Wyrd girl'. When Zoe Quinn or Anita started talking about SWAT calls and being hounded out of her house, the de facto response was 'playing the victim' and that it was all unlikely, probably didn't happen and she wasn't looking for attention.

 

TL;DR Almost all 'nerd' hobbies seem to have a massive problem with misogyny and GG is now an almost acceptable front for it under the ethics in journalism but it's still a whole load of shit.

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I would imagine that it's the usual low-level shittiness combined with (from the sounds of things) a year of not being able to get anyone to take it seriously that gives the piece such a desperate tone.

I would imagine that it's the usual low-level shittiness combined with (from the sounds of things) a year of not being able to get anyone to take it seriously that gives the piece such a desperate tone.

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Gaming? A boys club? I thought it was Nintendo or SEGA clubs, and whatever else came next.

 

PC were the weirdos...which is weird in retrospect as Gaben now rules the world and my wallet.

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"Many people seek to equate the problems, classifying both as symptoms of a trend toward injecting personal politics into a game’s narrative. This argument is, quite frankly, a poor one. When arguing for the rights of a creator to express themselves in their work, you cannot then immediately turn upon expressions with which you do not agree. Sorry, but that’s just not how freedom of expression works."

 

Has someone at Breitbart experienced a moment of clarity? Surely that statement flies in the face of all that GG has stood for since day one?

 

 

"Many people seek to equate the problems, classifying both as symptoms of a trend toward injecting personal politics into a game’s narrative. This argument is, quite frankly, a poor one. When arguing for the rights of a creator to express themselves in their work, you cannot then immediately turn upon expressions with which you do not agree. Sorry, but that’s just not how freedom of expression works."

 

Has someone at Breitbart experienced a moment of clarity? Surely that statement flies in the face of all that GG has stood for since day one?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

If they hate that one line they'd really hate Borderlands 2 which seems to spend half the game taking the piss out of toxic masculinity.

 

I think the plan there was just to distract them with Moxxi.

 

Because all the BLs actually have a reasonable record, especially for a game that still calls their one and only female main character in the vanilla versions of the first 2 games a "Siren".

 

The big bad in BL1 is female, and has a personality that can't be defined simply as "female". Tanis and the Mayor of New Haven are the same and Tanis especially is one of the great characters of gaming.  And even the Siren Lilith is well rounded and effortlessly the equal of Roland throughout the rest of the series.

 

In BL2, Tiny Tina is the same, she's got stereotypical "girl" bits to her personality but that's what they are, part of it.  She's not playing with a bunny called "Princess Fluffybutt" because she's a girl, it's because she's batshit crazy and happens to be showing it in that way at that moment. And I haven't even mentioned Ellie and Gaige.

 

And if you look at the playable characters of BL1.5 in vanilla mode, there's arguably 2 women and no man, the "Male" characters being a robot and a guy turning into a robot.  In fact the balance almost goes too far the other way, something they addressed with the excellent introduction of the Handsome Jack double.

 

I'm surprised any self respecting gamergater goes within a mile of it to be honest.

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12 hours ago, elmo said:

the Destiny example is a interesting one. The sit animation is weird when it's pointed out but for some reason I can't see a woman sitting down, legs apart like the men's animation. I'm not sure if that's my own fucked up issue or just a natural male/female thing.

 

It's a learned thing. It's 'normal' for women to sit in a more demure manner than men, and so most women learn (as girls) that the 'appropriate' way to sit is not to sit in the same manner as a man. Consider how children sit, then consider how that changes as they grow up.

 

Relevant to the topic of 'natural' postures: the friend that I mentioned who commented on the hip sway of Evie in Assassin's Creed, when sat on the floor will tend to sit 'like a man'. By contrast, when I sit on the floor, I tend to sit in a way that would generally be coded as 'feminine' - leg crossed over when in a chair, legs to the side while on the floor. I also stand in ways which are often coded as feminine (my natural posture when relaxed is to recline with one hand on hip, and my weight on one leg), something that I occasionally get stick for. Neither of us do so as affectations, they're just comfortable habits we fell into as we were growing up.

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Mm, Borderlands 2 (I don't remember a lot of 1 and I haven't played the spinoffs) had a number of major and minor female and LGBT characters and they were kind of introduced in a matter-of-fact way rather than the game having to make a big deal about it. I remember one ECHO log in the wildlife preservation area where Jack mentions the wife of a female doctor when threatening her after she protests against his actions or something, and there's other stuff such as the bits Dudley mentioned above.

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3 hours ago, Qazimod said:

Mm, Borderlands 2 (I don't remember a lot of 1 and I haven't played the spinoffs) had a number of major and minor female and LGBT characters and they were kind of introduced in a matter-of-fact way rather than the game having to make a big deal about it. I remember one ECHO log in the wildlife preservation area where Jack mentions the wife of a female doctor when threatening her after she protests against his actions or something, and there's other stuff such as the bits Dudley mentioned above.

 

Later (might even be that mission) there's a husband and husband one too.  And in the Pre-sequel Janey is very interested in you if you play as Athena.

 

Tales from the Borderlands

And they end up together in this game of course

 

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