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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


Unofficial Who
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1 hour ago, macosx said:

I thought she was dismissed for having a second job. Something she says was ok with Nintendo policy.

 

Ninentendo are looking like they threw someone under the bus.

 

I expect NoA's moonlighting policy to be the very similar to MS's where you could do it as long as it was okayed by the company, didn't compete with them, or bring them into disrepute, and a bunch of other rules.  Even if you're doing nothing wrong, not being given the go ahead by the company is enough for termination.  Also Washington is an at will state, so they could fire her for anything they like as long as it's not illegal to do so (i.e. discrimination against race or gender).  I may be being cynical but it sounds like wanted to get rid of her so found a viable reason.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jonny_rat said:

So, if I'm understanding this all correctly, Nintendo's reasoning behind Rapp being sacked is her moonlighting, which they say is not allowed, and she says is allowed. This part of it seems fairly straightforward; if her contract explicitly stated that she was not allowed to do so, then I can understand at least how something of a compromise has been reached between her and Nintendo. What happened to her was shitty, and I think in the circumstances I'd have preferred them to have kept her on a statement to the harassers out there and as a message of good faith to Rapp. Without knowing all the discussions that went on between her and Nintendo however, it's still pretty hard to avoid Alex W's point above that however you look at it, and whatever breach of contract happened, it still only came to light because of abuse and doxxing. Not a good look for Nintendo at all.

 

On the other hand, if there was no explicit prohibition of moonlighting in her contract (and given that there's conflicting information from different sources on this, I suspect that even if it's in there, it's not exactly clearly stated) then this feels like a terrible decision, especially if it was based on information scrounged up about the nature of her second job (which I don't want to look into, but Nintendo's stuff about her being 'out of line with their corporate image' does not sound positive). If this is the case I hope she fights it; easy for me to say when I'm not the person who would be jeopardising their chance at further industry work, as well as opening themselves up to months or years of abuse from 'gaters, though.

 

She was a cam girl, bloody right she's not going to make too much of a scene about "moonlighting". If moonlighting is allowed then why did she use a psedonym? It's far away from Nintendo business after all. The gifts, the "teaser" pictures, the open Amazon wishlist, sex-positivity tweet. No wonder she's good on the lives treats, she's had a lot of experience. It's all there but the press won't touch it with barge pole for obvious reasons.

 

 There's little reason to not suspect a gamergater outed her but if those screen caps ever get out there it's going to be one hell of a meltdown.

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35 minutes ago, Shoes said:

You're alright, Who, but it isn't really on to bandy around baseless statements like she approves of child exploitation.

 

Yeah, all this latest discussion makes her sound worse than was presented earlier in the thread, when this first broke - basically that she had written a thesis sympathetic to Japan's position of not outlawing manga involving teens or younger children. Rudi appears to have seen tweets that make it sound much worse - which is the GGers intent. The original Kotaku article is here:

 

http://kotaku.com/the-ugly-new-front-in-the-neverending-video-game-cultur-1762942381

 

and, for example, it says:

 

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It’s a provocative essay about a deeply sensitive subject and is more nuanced than its detractors portray. Rapp outlines a deep cultural divide between Japan and other countries, pointing out Japan’s traditions of sexualizing young people and its free speech traditions while contrasting them with Western efforts against child porn and what she saw as imperialist pressure by the West to get Japan to change its child porn laws. Rapp, clearly a respectful fan of Japanese culture, distinguishes between exploiting real-life children and the creation of fictionalized sexual material. At no point does she defend or advocate for the abuse of children, and in fact argues for stronger laws against child exploitation.

 

See also this BBC article which contrasts statements by a UN rapporteur with a Japanese academic. The UN is indeed calling on Japan to outlaw any drawn imagery involving children in sexual situations, as the UK has already done.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35714067

 

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Ms Boer-Buquicchio says she is aware of the importance of striking the right balance for freedom of expression but that the rights of the child should not be "sacrificed at the expense of powerful and lucrative businesses". She points out that "any pornographic representation of a child," real or not, "constitutes child pornography".

 

This is a view Yukari Fujimoto, manga expert and professor at Meiji University, does not share. She feels the UN is targeting manga on false assumptions.

 

Sounds like Rapp's thesis was siding with the likes of the professor in this debate.

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Some of the tweets can be seen quoted in this thread (from someone who is 100% unaffiliated with gamergate and has actually been harassed by the same kind of people harassing Rapp, for what it's worth) and the thesis can be read online here (page 48 is the most relevant stuff).

 

As for the 'it's their culture' stuff, it's some weird orientalising thing that does this and assumes there is no movement within Japan against this kind of material (there actually is). No-one says it's okay for Spanish people to be paedophiles because their age of consent is 14 and it's just 'their culture', but Japan gets special treatment from westerners for some fucking reason.

 

Similarly even defenders of, I don't know, Alan Moore's Lost Girls don't say that because of the existence of this particular High Art depiction of minors having sex then it's fine for other drawn depictions to exist even when they're just straight-up pornographic.

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Those don't quite match your description of:

 

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about how child porn laws should be more lax and 'men who like kids' shouldn't be judged and that 'child sexual agency' should be taken into account.

 

The 'agency' tweet isn't 'sexual agency'; it's about age-appropriate viewing of gore, etc; like, judging when your kids are ready to watch a horror movie and such like. The porn laws is 'time to lead a discussion' - my interpretation being that she believes that criminalizing stuff like 'Lost Girls' does nothing to protect kids from paedophiles. Putting more money into child protection, social services and investigative policing does. So yeah, those are reaching, taken completely out of context, and you're dancing to GGers tune on this one.

 

Which doesn't mean I think you should agree with her. That's not the point.

 

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As for the 'it's their culture' stuff, it's some weird orientalising thing that does this and assumes there is no movement within Japan against this kind of material (there actually is). No-one says it's okay for Spanish people to be paedophiles because their age of consent is 14 and it's just 'their culture', but Japan gets special treatment from westerners for some fucking reason.

 

And it's clear that you and she take different views on this - doesn't make her a supporter of actual child abuse. I think Japan is fucking weird for putting up with some of the material that gets released - anyone with an interest in anime and manga has to be *very* careful where they browse to - but I equally think our extreme pornography laws that cover this stuff are poorly drafted and too wide ranging, and should never have been introduced in the form that they were. Doesn't make me a paedophile sympathiser for wanting that discussion to be had.

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27 minutes ago, Rudi von Starnberg said:

Some of the tweets can be seen quoted in this thread (from someone who is 100% unaffiliated with gamergate and has actually been harassed by the same kind of people harassing Rapp, for what it's worth) and the thesis can be read online here (page 48 is the most relevant stuff).

 

As for the 'it's their culture' stuff, it's some weird orientalising thing that does this and assumes there is no movement within Japan against this kind of material (there actually is). No-one says it's okay for Spanish people to be paedophiles because their age of consent is 14 and it's just 'their culture', but Japan gets special treatment from westerners for some fucking reason.

 

Similarly even defenders of, I don't know, Alan Moore's Lost Girls don't say that because of the existence of this particular High Art depiction of minors having sex then it's fine for other drawn depictions to exist even when they're just straight-up pornographic.

 

Your Twitter link doesn't seem to work, so I've no idea what she said there. However, I read the pages of her thesis you linked to, and it's quite clear that she is not supporting child pornography there, as has been claimed - unless you can't read properly. Which would explain a lot of the furore.

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Very sad to see a handful of folk are running hard with a GG agenda re the Baldurs Gate EE expansion S0D - seems they don't like original female characters such as Safana rewritten (by a female writer), and some are also up in arms about a trans bystander NPC who has 2 lines in the game.

 

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3 minutes ago, macosx said:

There's a new Tropes video, been up a few days. The male gaze.

 

I watched this last night with my wife.  She had difficulty seeing some of the "over-exaggerated" hip wiggles.

 

I felt it was a little weak.  I suspect this is because it was a lot more obvious than many of the other videos - particularly camera angles.  With other things, it's quite possible that the developers may have not realised how they were portraying women in their games - they just hadn't thought to include a playable female lead, and so on.  But with this I can't quite see the Bayonetta programming team turning to each other and exclaiming "Oh, no!  We didn't realise you had a camera pointing at her crotch!".

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Just came here to post that. It's predictably horrible.

 

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Harassment in nerd hobbies has been quantified and studied and the results are appalling. 25% of the respondents reported harassment, 13% reported unwelcome sexual comments, and 8% reported groping, sexual assault, or rape. If 13% of SDCC attendees receive unwelcome sexual comments, that’s over 17,000 people being sexually harassed every convention. You would have to be an idiot to think none of these people are going to talk to each other, and cavernously evil to dismiss everyone as lying. As for sexual assault? That’s over 10,000 people being groped at SDCC, and it doesn’t count people who are groped more than once. Many of my friends have given up their once-beloved con circuit because they can no longer deal with, as one prominent cosplayer put it, “men handling me like a piece of meat”.

 

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On 3/31/2016 at 1:55 PM, The Bag said:

 

I expect NoA's moonlighting policy to be the very similar to MS's

 

Having talked to some devs based in Washington this is apparently not the case - Nintendo are very strict about everything (they own everything you do, no moonlighting, etc, etc) and it seems everyone in the area knows this.

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On 03/04/2016 at 1:05 PM, Benny said:

Just in case anyone is in any doubt whether NEG has actually taken on board anything anyone has ever told him is this thread and isn't just trolling, here he is on the Discord App thing we were all on before the forum came back up:

 

 

It's just pointless to engage with wilful idiocy.

What an ignorant bellend.  So glad I blocked him on discord too. 

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8 hours ago, Xevious said:

 

I watched this last night with my wife.  She had difficulty seeing some of the "over-exaggerated" hip wiggles.

 

By sheer coincidence, I had a friend visiting over the Easter weekend and we played a bit of AC: Syndicate, which she'd not tried before. She enjoyed it, but did comment on the odd hip sway that Evie had, commenting that it was "no wonder they couldn't afford to put female characters in Unity if they'll insist on putting female assassins in high heels".

 

7 hours ago, Graham_S said:

A long, disturbing blogpost cataloging one woman's experience of harassment in tabletop gaming.

 

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem

 

And yes, I read that while the forum was down. Horrible stuff, and the fact it didn't surprise me is more horrible still.

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13 hours ago, Graham_S said:

A long, disturbing blogpost cataloging one woman's experience of harassment in tabletop gaming.

 

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem

 

I don't doubt she receives horrific threats, but, and I understand I could be completely in the wrong here, I don't believe a lot of that, not because of the implausibility, but because of how it's written. Interesting to read about the case judgement here 

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/taking-a-stand-against-abuse-284204591.html

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16 hours ago, Xevious said:

 

I watched this last night with my wife.  She had difficulty seeing some of the "over-exaggerated" hip wiggles.

 

I felt it was a little weak.  I suspect this is because it was a lot more obvious than many of the other videos - particularly camera angles.  With other things, it's quite possible that the developers may have not realised how they were portraying women in their games - they just hadn't thought to include a playable female lead, and so on.  But with this I can't quite see the Bayonetta programming team turning to each other and exclaiming "Oh, no!  We didn't realise you had a camera pointing at her crotch!".

The way I see it the hip wiggle is fine in Bayonetta. Sex is clearly a huge part of her character and it's a big part of what the game is about and in my book that's not a problem.

 

Where she does have a point is when it's used for characters where that's not the case. Where it's a sort of default walk for absolutely no reason.

 

the Destiny example is a interesting one. The sit animation is weird when it's pointed out but for some reason I can't see a woman sitting down, legs apart like the men's animation. I'm not sure if that's my own fucked up issue or just a natural male/female thing.

 

I might load up Rise of the Tomb Raider later and see how bad it is in that or if it's even there at all because although Lara was clearly sexualised when the original games were out, it just doesn't seem to be part of the new Lara.

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4 hours ago, minkee said:

I just read this: http://www.techiesproject.com/stevie-case/

 

I don't remember seeing it here before

 

Can someone who's not reading it on a phone at 4:45am please repost the link with some choice quotes so people will actually read it thank you please

 

I always did wonder what happened to KillCreek, turns out she moved onto design (which I remembered) on Daikatana (which I forgot).

 

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,13426/

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4 hours ago, elmo said:

the Destiny example is a interesting one. The sit animation is weird when it's pointed out but for some reason I can't see a woman sitting down, legs apart like the men's animation. I'm not sure if that's my own fucked up issue or just a natural male/female thing.


We're all a little fucked up. It's a consequence of being part of culture. It's why videos like this are so important to the goal of challenging norms and expectations. They've opened my eyes to many things that I've taken for granted, ignored or just never considered before.

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Quote

++++
I am thirteen years old and in a game store for the first time. I examine their selection of dice and take them to the counter to pay.

“How old are you?” asks the balding, middle-aged man behind the counter.

“Thirteen.”

“Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed!” he chuckles in glee. The Warhammer 40K gamers at the table behind him take up the refrain. “Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed! Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed!”

I run.
++++


“You sound drunk. Were you drinking? I’m not filing a report for some drunken slut.” The officer hangs up.

I have no more tears.
++++


“Why is this so important to you, anyway?” The officer is blunt, but I appreciate it.

“It’s my hobby. I love it. I’ve been doing this for twenty years.”

Her response cuts me to my core, “Find another hobby or you’re going to die.”
+++++

 

Riiiiiiiiiight.

 

This is tough because I absolutely hold the principle: "Listen and believe". This person did indeed win a human rights case against her employer. I have no reason to doubt that she has experienced rape and harrassment.

 

However, her writing sounds like the ramblings of a fantasist. As written, these events sound like exaggerations or fabrications, with an extreme persecution bias. I hate writing that -- it's my moral duty to listen and believe people's experiences of sexual harrassment. But it would also serve her cause much better if her writing didn't sound like it does.

 

I'm sure I sound cold and heartless: if you'd been date-raped, sexually harrassed and assaulted, I'm sure you wouldn't be able to speak clinically or impartially about it. You'd speak emotionally. I get that. But there's a point when my bullshit detector goes off, you know? A person who remembers ther experiences with that dialogue is a person with credibility problems.

 

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The thing is, if she's the same person that won that human rights thing from the other link someone posted, it was in Manitoba, which is the same place as the Steven Avery / Making a Murderer case, so after watching that, I can entirely believe that the police are fucking useless and might call someone a drunken slut on the phone.

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What's so far-fetched about any of that? The anecdote about the 40K players sounds like the kind of follow-the-head-beard brainlessness I've seen in plenty of nerd environments.

What's so far-fetched about any of that? The anecdote about the 40K players sounds like the kind of follow-the-head-beard brainlessness I've seen in plenty of nerd environments.

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