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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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Pointless change imo considering you'd only see player poses on the results screen I believe*, and justifying removal of sexuality as it 'doesn't fit the character' only makes me laugh. People can be attracted to any character they like and if that means there's just a tiny bit of fan service for those looking for it, so what? I don't believe it degrades the character.

 

* And in some sense, that's the whole point of customization. It's representing the player playing, no different from skimpy SFV costumes.

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5 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

I'm not sure one moment of ass-pose is the same as flaunting her sexuality, it's just one pose that most gals of approximately that age would happily upload to Instagram. It seems healthier to justify it than it does to remove it.

 

Obviously they should have done a better job in the first place, but I don't think just removing it is that helpful to the conversation.

Surely the fact that this is a 'thing' is a good reason to remove it if it's out of context? Gals of no doubt younger age would be doing that on instagram after seeing your Kardashian's (or whoever the fuck) doing it and seeing it in media and thinking this was a good "look" when it is purely a 'sexual' pose more for the benefit of males, than it is any thing else.

 

From the article it seems that there was little justification for it other than 'it's a sexy girl pose' so they removed it. Kinda makes sense to me.

 

If anything, it would probably seem a bit stranger if they tacked in some sort of justification like 'she works out a lot and is proud of her bum, so she likes to demonstrate the benefits of a healthy lifestyle by showing off her buns of steel. She also thinks the situation in Syria is horrible and mean and wants are boys to come home safely so she can give them all a hug. That should put some ammo in your guns lads, go get 'em!'

 

Sorry, turned into a Page 3 blurb half way through there, not sure what happened....

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1 minute ago, b00dles said:

Surely the fact that this is a 'thing' is a good reason to remove it if it's out of context? Gals of no doubt younger age would be doing that on instagram after seeing your Kardashian's (or whoever the fuck) doing it and seeing it in media and thinking this was a good "look" when it is purely a 'sexual' pose more for the benefit of males, than it is any thing else.

 

From the article it seems that there was little justification for it other than 'it's a sexy girl pose' so they removed it. Kinda makes sense to me.

 

If anything, it would probably seem a bit stranger if they tacked in some sort of justification like 'she works out a lot and is proud of her bum, so she likes to demonstrate the benefits of a healthy lifestyle by showing off her buns of steel. She also thinks the situation in Syria is horrible and mean and wants are boys to come home safely so she can give them all a hug. That should put some ammo in your guns lads, go get 'em!'

 

Sorry, turned into a Page 3 blurb half way through there, not sure what happened....

 

It's much more complicated than that though. Some posing is done out of insecurity rather than confidence, some is done to try and reclaim possession of themselves, some is done to impress specific guys, some is just attention, some is for the benefit of a friend who was embarrassed about it. To say it's "for the benefit of males" just isn't accurate, that isn't how social media works.

 

2 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

Good news Rev, they've replaced it with duckface to keep it 100% Instagram-accurate.

 

Y'see, whilst I know this is a joke but it's also a better response. "That pose didn't represent what we were aiming to convey, so we've made it clearer by..."

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1 minute ago, Rev said:

Y'see, whilst I know this is a joke but it's also a better response. "That pose didn't represent what we were aiming to convey, so we've made it clearer by..."

 

From their response it looks like it wasn't meant to convey anything so it might as well go.

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13 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

The laughter of someone who hasn't been on Instagram much.

 

I don't go on Instagram I'm just laughing at your total generalisation of MOST women of that approximate age group.

 

Most girls (gals) of that approximate age would be happy to pose like that on Instagram. Not, most girls who post on instagram would make that pose (something I would also refute) but most girls (gals) of that approximate age (how old is that?) WOULD happily post it on instagram. You obviously know a lot more girls (of that approximate age) than i do, because the ones i do know, wouldn't post something like that on Instagram.

 

So that's alright then. Or not? 

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7 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

It's much more complicated than that though. Some posing is done out of insecurity rather than confidence, some is done to try and reclaim possession of themselves, some is done to impress specific guys, some is just attention, some is for the benefit of a friend who was embarrassed about it. To say it's "for the benefit of males" just isn't accurate, that isn't how social media works.

 

Bingo

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Just had a look at the character's bio, a test pilot that gained time control powers. Nothing there screams that their victory pose would be showing off their arse to the camera.

 

Reminds me of that Avengers poster where all the characters are making dramatic power poses, apart from Black Widow who mad making an almost identical bum to the audience pose as this.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

It's much more complicated than that though. Some posing is done out of insecurity rather than confidence, some is done to try and reclaim possession of themselves, some is done to impress specific guys, some is just attention, some is for the benefit of a friend who was embarrassed about it. To say it's "for the benefit of males" just isn't accurate, that isn't how social media works.

 

 

Y'see, whilst I know this is a joke but it's also a better response. "That pose didn't represent what we were aiming to convey, so we've made it clearer by..."

I'm totally aware that it's a lot more complicated than that, but you're not going to go into those sort of specifics to clarify a 'Win pose' are you, so having what is ostensibly a sexual pose despite the fact that it might be for a myriad of reasons not least something like 'here's that over used pose all of you blokes like' but it's never going to have that depth of reason and they've said themselves that it didn't have that depth of reason, so they got rid of it.

 

The point is that it's re-inforcing steroetypes by having it in there and to a very simplistic degree (without knowing the motivations behind the pose - of which there is none, as it isn't a real person) it is "for the benefit of guys" - in this game. so therefore binning it seems fair enough.

 

Instagram has all sorts of filth on it, doesn't mean that it makes it a good thing to use as inspiration for a win pose, if you're otherwise trying to make a universally appealing game and at least try and be a bit progressive or what have you with your characters and their designs.

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Progressive doesn't mean the lack of sexuality in character design and their player chosen poses.

 

There's a large difference comparing Tracer's pose to the much more problematic Street Fighter V designs, where every female is male fan service 100% of the time from every angle.

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5 minutes ago, Harsin said:

Just had a look at the character's bio, a test pilot that gained time control powers. Nothing there screams that their victory pose would be showing off their arse to the camera.

 

Reminds me of that Avengers poster where all the characters are making dramatic power poses, apart from Black Widow who mad making an almost identical bum to the audience pose as this.

 

 

 

There's no similarity between the Avengers and this. If Black Widow had made that pose in the film and the film was claiming to offer a diverse cast then I'd rather it was justified than removed from the DVD release.

 

But it wasn't, it was just using the only female of significance in the film as a sex object to help make a billion quid.

 

But you're right, test pilots are famously restrained and timid, Hal Jordan for instance has always been represented as pretty much asexual. Or as woman-chasing and egotistical. I forget which.

 

It basically boils down to the fact a person who once wanted to show off their arse doesn't need to be something that is foreshadowed by their career choices or key personality traits. It doesn't change who they are and the suggestion that only certain "types" of person have ever wanted to pose and show themselves off is extremely regressive.

 

As I said, don't put it in the game in the first place. That they need to be told by their audience they don't understand their own characters is embarrassing and removing it is an obvious snap response. That doesn't mean that removing it isn't problematic in a different way though. I'm very aware that context is both incredibly difficult to put in place and likely to be ignored by the masses, but I still think it could be a better response when they've said they're trying to be representative.

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I see what you mean but the way I take it is that they're doing a lot of things without realising the 'bigger picture' in regards to artist person (that I imagine is a guy) did that pose and no one really thought much of it because it is a 'standard' pose - even if it is a bad standard - then their audience have made them realise that it's a bit silly, so they're going to change it.

 

Admittedly they shouldn't need the fans to point that out and it does look bad and unfortunately can be perceived as SJW censorship in how they've responded to it but only really by people that are not even going to think of that pose as being problematic in the first place IMO. If anything, I think it's good that they are listening and thinking about it as I don't think it was initially made maliciously, or for the sake of perving but that is part of the issue that they're attempting to address.

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3 minutes ago, b00dles said:

I see what you mean but the way I take it is that they're doing a lot of things without realising the 'bigger picture' in regards to artist person (that I imagine is a guy) did that pose and no one really thought much of it because it is a 'standard' pose - even if it is a bad standard - then their audience have made them realise that it's a bit silly, so they're going to change it.

 

Admittedly they shouldn't need the fans to point that out and it does look bad and unfortunately can be perceived as SJW censorship in how they've responded to it but only really by people that are not even going to think of that pose as being problematic in the first place IMO. If anything, I think it's good that they are listening and thinking about it as I don't think it was initially made maliciously, or for the sake of perving but that is part of the issue that they're attempting to address.

 

I agree with everything you've said there, it's definitely an improvement on how it would have been handled a few years ago. They just could have been even better about it.

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1 hour ago, b00dles said:

They should just make all the poses for women really 'manly' and all the male poses overtly sexualised female poses and see what happens to the internet.

 

avengers_booty_ass_emble_by_kevinbolk-d4

 

It's a variant on the old 'Broke Back Pose' trope - edit: while it's debatable whether the original victory pose in question is a particularly egregious example, it's close enough that they were probably right to pull it.

 

See also (Edit: probably NSFW):

 

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/

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31 minutes ago, smac said:

 

 

 

It's a variant on the old 'Broke Back Pose' trope - edit: while it's debatable whether the original victory pose in question is a particularly egregious example, it's close enough that they were probably right to pull it.

 

See also (Edit: probably NSFW):

 

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/

Yeah,like that but it was easier for me to type that out as I did than say 'they should have done all the characters in Overwatch like that one person did as a piss take of the avengers assemble poster that one time" :P

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The reaction on the Internet to the Overwatch thing has really depressed and frustrated me. The amount of "well, look at this pose this male character is doing, isn't that the same thing?" reactions I've seen. People just don't get it. Like, a LOT of people. People who will watch that TB video (though admittedly I could only get through about a minute of it) and think that it's funny and he has a good point. I don't understand how everyone else copes with the sheer scope of the incomprehension.

 

:(

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Spoiler

 

 

Video on the same lines of what I was going on about a page earlier about sexuality (which I agree with). Minus points for him not stopping to think why poses such as this has been in media for decades however.

 

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The TB video is a classic strawman though.

 

"Man you don't get it, Your example is stupid."

 

"Yes indeed it is sir, therefore your complaints being the same are also as dumb and can be neatly ignored I have made my point, Q.E.D and good day sir!" (Bows and doffs hat.)

 

Of course we know exactly what's going to happen now. Every 'Gator is going to play as Tracer. If they can't pressure Blizzard to put the pose back in they'll find a way to mod it in. If they can't do that...well I'm guessing Blizzard will have to prepare for loads of custom Tracers dressed in purple and green.

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Notch has commented.

 

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/everyones-talking-about-booty-minecraft-creator-weighs-overwatch-tracer-pose-523096

 

 

I'm willing to bet Blizzard will most likely put it back in when they realise the criticism they might get from "bullying" progressives will be less of a headache/financial loss than the possible actions of the "real fans".

 

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