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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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5 minutes ago, Harsin said:

We hoped we'd never have to use it, but I think It's time to enact the Shadow NEG Protocol. Actually negging NEG has about as much effect as flicking matchsticks at the sun. Instead we must automatically neg those who make the choice to engage with NEG. Eventually starving the idiocy of oxygen with the hope of salvaging threads. It may seem cruel. But in the long run it's the only way to secure a future where our children may be able to read threads without non sequitur references to masturbating and 16-bit platform games in lieu of actual humour every third post.

 

"Computer, activate Shadow NEG Protocol, authorisation Alex Zero Zero Zero One. Countdown ten minutes."

 

 

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As much as I don't want to reply to NEG and get negs, The Beginner's Guide was absolutely fantastic. A beautiful, interesting, melancholy experience.  It's a game, and if you buy it and then moan you're an idiot.

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Still on the subject of games-not-games, right back at the start of GG there were lots of GGators, sympathisers and useful idiots cropping up in the comments sections of any news site article about issues of representation in games saying "If you don't like how things are go and make your own games!" A flawed gambit that assumed that people A) weren't already doing this and B) wouldn't succeed at doing this.

 

Now that it's obvious that people are not just making their own games but the popularity and awareness of these sorts of games is increasing the GG collective tactic has been to fall back to the already existing complaint that some games were "not game!" in an attempt to regain their perceived ownership of cultural space that was never theirs in the first place.

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I think a lot about what Neg has to say about what constitutes and what doesn't constitue a game deserves it's own thread. I'm pretty sure a thread was started for this sort of thing in the past year.

 

But I just want to dive into this a bit because it's similar to a heated arguement I had with an ex-friend.

 

First of all, walking sim games not being games. This has been a bit of an issue for years now but it really seemed to start to gather steam with Dear Esther which was seen as a bit pretentious. But it really seemed to hit the big time with the release of Going Home. All of a sudden due to the timing of the games release and it's themes there really was a push for it to be declared "not a real game." And there's been a bit of a push in other genres as well. Why? It partially appears to be part of the debate over the make up of gamers.

 

So the arguement I had went a bit like this. I'd been talking about how the demographic makeup of the games audience had changed so that it was about 50-50 gender wise across a large spread of ages.

 

Not so insisted the other party. The arguement was flawed by the inclusion of "not reall games." And I've seen this used over and over since. It uses the lovely "no true Scotsman" fallacy. The arguement is as follows. While some like myself might believe that the gaming audience is more diverse than ever, once you remove "not true games" from the set it's obvious that the gaming audience is still made up of 14-35 year old men (mostly white). Therefore all games should cater to this audience, otherwise the comapnies involved are courting financial disaster. In the case of shareholder owned companies they absolutely must service this market and no others.

 

So "walking simulators". Not real games apparently (although a couple get the thumbs up if they're made by the right people.) Puzzle games like Candy Crush? Not a real game. Hidden object games? Not a real game. Twine games? Not a real game. And so it goes, the set being whittled down until it matches the set the person arguing the point is making. "These games, the Call of Duties. These Battlefields. These Mortal Kombats."

 

Anything else? Not a true Scotsman real game.

 

It's all a bit useless anyway, games have splintered into so many genres it's now time to accept that maybe all these things are games but they might not be your thing. And that's OK. My experience of The Beginner's Guide was that half the game was in my head, the struggle in game to work out where the narrative was going, and then to reflect on it post game. I do that at least once a week. Neg's experience? Walking from A to B in a series of unfinished counterstrike maps. The end. Not worth the money for him. And that's a valid opinion as well.

 

Rewinding to the very start of the thread, this debate all started with someone wanting to open up games for examination. Not to try and get them banned Jack Thompson style. Not to trash them. But to actually treat them seriously and open up a discussion. And the loudest response was from those who wanted none of it. That's what this has all been about.

 

I've really enjoyed discussing this with most of you, even the people I've disagreed with. I feel that most of you have argued in good faith and that sometimes we've come away at least understanding each others point of view. I think that even the most passive games like walking sims are far far more powerful in terms of teaching empathy for other people's lives than any other medium.

 

I have to applaud Neg though. I'm sorry, but I don't think you're argueing in good faith. I think you're trolling and gumming up the thread in the most clever way. There's no way I could ever prove that's your intention, I can't ignore your posts and would not want you banned from the thread. I just know what you're doing. I much prefer to debate with posters here who are my polar opposites, even the derision that Rockstarjez displayed felt at least honest to his point of view. You're input has caused me to dread coming in here to try pick past your posts to get to the real content. And your circular arguements and "just educate me" spiel holds no water when most of your questions have already been answered time and time again.

 

This thread has been running for four years now and I get the feeling that for me at least I probably need to take a rest from this thread, at least until the next Anita video comes out. I note with interest that idle thumbs recently closed their thread about Gamergate on their forums after two years when it was clear that the thread had run it's course and was doing more harm than good. I'd rather this not become a thread about GG and be more fixed upon the original topic but for now I leave it in (most) of your capable hands.

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I have used my moderator powers and split the topic. Except it all went a bit wrong and bugged, which I've asked the grown-up mods about, so it's all a bit weird at the moment. Possibly some posts have disappeared. Possibly not.

 

FYI, like.

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6 hours ago, Scribblor said:

 

Fair enough about the gatekeeper bit. What I perhaps should have said is that your jokes aren't going down well in this thread because they make you look like you're not engaging with the subject. Especially when, as in this case, you give a nonsensical answer to someone who's said they don't understand what you meant in your previous post.

 

Edit: Sorry, replied on my phone without reading the rest of the thread. Didn't mean to keep the vacuous nonsense rolling.

 

Sorry, genuinely assumed you were joke posting with the 'Please Try Again' post and in my head in sounded like the phone tone guy. I'll go back and see what you asked me to clarify and edit this post once I've answered the others.

 

Edit: I asked should movie to tapes that came with a read-along book be counted as a game? Can continue in the other thread.

 

5 hours ago, b00dles said:

It's also a matter of tone NEG, you might have an opinion on what is a game or what isn't but the way you write just comes across like you're making the decisions on what counts as a game. There's very little use of even 'IMHO' so it just rubs the wrong way. I'm reluctant to ignore anyone so I don't want to do that but no one else in here is claiming in such definite terms what a game is or isn't and then you wade in and do just that, it's very annoying. Even if it is your opinion, it doesn't read like that.

 

Aye, am guilty of tone at times but I'd like to think I've been pretty forward in this subject, saying it's 'my' opinion and all that. The subject sidetracked to difficulty at one point and I apologised to Shoes for example once I realized my mistake. (there being more reasons to play on Easy then just the ones I assumed) Nonetheless, I wouldn't say some haven't been responding just as 'factly' about their opinions. Case in point the next response:

 

4 hours ago, Shoes said:

As much as I don't want to reply to NEG and get negs, The Beginner's Guide was absolutely fantastic. A beautiful, interesting, melancholy experience.  It's a game, and if you buy it and then moan you're an idiot.

 

Tsk on the 'matter of fact' opinion at the end there. Otherwise just a 'Bah!' at you, sir. Glad the Stanley guy gets some more money in any case, maybe a game will come out of it. ;)

 

3 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

I have to applaud Neg though. I'm sorry, but I don't think you're argueing in good faith. I think you're trolling and gumming up the thread in the most clever way. There's no way I could ever prove that's your intention, I can't ignore your posts and would not want you banned from the thread. I just know what you're doing. I much prefer to debate with posters here who are my polar opposites, even the derision that Rockstarjez displayed felt at least honest to his point of view. You're input has caused me to dread coming in here to try pick past your posts to get to the real content. And your circular arguements and "just educate me" spiel holds no water when most of your questions have already been answered time and time again.

 

My only deliberate/knowing nature about our latest discussion is knowing it was steering off-topic and that it was going to continue to if I kept responding and if I kept getting responses. There's honestly nothing to be gained from 'deliberately' derailing a thread like this as the subject is interesting and important at times.

 

Haven't asked a education post in a while, have I? Was initially responding to the Notch stuff. Sorry for the dread regardless.

 

I'll go paste some of the good responses in the other thread now. Edit: Turns out the best posts are gone. Ah well, new ones to write!

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, NEG said:

Tsk on the 'matter of fact' opinion at the end there. Otherwise just a 'Bah!' at you, sir. Glad the Stanley guy gets some more money in any case, maybe a game will come out of it. ;)

 

I'm confident in my opinion; that you're an idiot.

 

 

edit: sorry guys.  It's so hard not to reply. 

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Oh wow.  I know it's off topic a bit but I'm sure this is the best place for it.  Milo/Nero was at the White House this week at a press junket, and what did he do?

 

He complained about Twitter taking away his verification check mark and asked if there was anything the government could do to "stop Twitter censoring" him.  To the fuckin White House.

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Ghostbusters related.

 

 

A good explanation around the middle of how one thing leads to another. Pretty sad. Basically: Can't a movie look shit simply because it looks shit? No, because the internet.

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Something I was unaware of recently is that Gamergate (or a 'splinter' group called Revolt) is apparently trying to get a Nintendo employee fired by accusing her of supporting paedophilia, which they base on an essay she wrote for college in 2011.

 

 http://kotaku.com/the-ugly-new-front-in-the-neverending-video-game-cultur-1762942381

 

It appears the real reason they want to 'punish' her though is because of the 'censorship' of recent Nintendo games like Fire Emblem: Fates, despite her having nothing to do with the localization.

 

While Nintendo have told the complainers that they'll look into it, they've otherwise been silent, & I hope this is because they've looked at the employees behaviour, found nothing wrong, & are now just ignoring the complaints & getting on the business of videogames, which would seem to be the best response.

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1 hour ago, Jarik said:

Something I was unaware of recently is that Gamergate (or a 'splinter' group called Revolt) is apparently trying to get a Nintendo employee fired by accusing her of supporting paedophilia, which they base on an essay she wrote for college in 2011.

 

 http://kotaku.com/the-ugly-new-front-in-the-neverending-video-game-cultur-1762942381

 

It appears the real reason they want to 'punish' her though is because of the 'censorship' of recent Nintendo games like Fire Emblem: Fates, despite her having nothing to do with the localization.

 

While Nintendo have told the complainers that they'll look into it, they've otherwise been silent, & I hope this is because they've looked at the employees behaviour, found nothing wrong, & are now just ignoring the complaints & getting on the business of videogames, which would seem to be the best response.

 

They've been going after her for a while now, totally coincidental their target is another woman.  It's Alison Rapp who people might know from her doing various Nintendo demos on streams at E3.

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2 hours ago, Broker said:

Hold on, can anyone now just stick Milo's name and face on a Twitter account and look as real as him? Surely that's begging for a molydeuxing?

 

Bilo Yiannopoulos

Milo Yianno-plus

Milo Yiannopou-lots

 

Twitter bio: "Parody account. But equally verified."

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2 hours ago, The Bag said:

 

They've been going after her for a while now, totally coincidental their target is another woman.  It's Alison Rapp who people might know from her doing various Nintendo demos on streams at E3.

 

 

GamerGate is fucking disgusting and at the same time almost amusingly hypocritical.

 

'Rapp’s essay isn’t perfect and her tweets suggest she was, at least years ago, someone more comfortable with the ideas of teens being seen as sex objects than the average American might be. But, no shit: it’s an essay written by a young college student who was very into Japanese culture, where societal standards are different. The basic premise of her essay says Japan should be allowed to define its own cultural boundaries and not bow to the pressures of outside forces. Ironically, while Rapp has become a symbol of the supposedly nefarious social justice warriors censoring Japanese games, she’s being attacked with an essay in which she argued that Japanese culture should stay Japanese.'

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Not that I've heard of the history figures noted in the vid, but I've no idea if notable female figures of history are genuinely overlooked. In say, programming history classes(if such things exist) to give example of the person mentioned for the first computer program Ada Lovelace? Are they?

 

There's a difference when it's meant to just teach of course, but overlooked? It can be a term for drama for the sake of. (That the stupid internet will lap up, of course.)

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