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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)


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Well [the "game" label] is a deep and meaningful discussion, but I'm more bamboozled by the fact that Notch was simultaneously trying to tell people that labels are insignificant things that nobody should bother with while doggedly arguing with people that his understanding of this one particular label was the right one and it was important that we don't misapply it. Like, in alternating posts.

Edited by Alex W.
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Aside from lols about 'everything is uncharted' I do think that a lot of genre labels are a bit wooly these days as well but if you're going to get carried away about categorising things, then you should probably relax a bit as it is. You could argue that TV shows like Game of Thrones or The Wire aren't traditional TV shows and should have a different label on them too but people don't seem to get their knickers in a twist about it as much.

 

I also think that the 'old school' games of your pong/ frogger/ moon patrol or whatever may have had more 'play' in the game play than some stuff but whether that is a better 'game' than Everybody's gone to the Rapture because it's more reaction based, or twitch is a peculiar argument really. What about text adventures? They're as old as time and are more like a choose your own adventure book than any of those other early 'games' but they didn't seem to get that stick iirc.

 

The bloke that made minecraft, which is more like lego in videogame form than it is Oblivion, or CoD or whatever to moan about what is a game is also a little bit strange imho too.

 

I think they're all 'games' really and people should chill out but then again, I don't mind women or foreign people making games either, so I'm obviously completely mental.

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@NEGI didn't, but I also didn't enjoy the stupidly hard bits?  As my condition 

Spoiler

Friedreich's ataxia is an autosomal recessive inherited disease that causes progressive damage to the nervous system.

gets increasingly worse, I guess I've been more mindful of the difficulty of games. Ori And The Blind forest was a beautiful experience for me apart from the excessively difficult bits.  I stopped playing.  There were two minutes of pixel perfect, fast-paced platforming at the end of the first act.  And I was never going to do it.

 

It bummed me out.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Shoes said:

@NEGI didn't, but I also didn't enjoy the stupidly hard bits?  As my condition 

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Friedreich's ataxia is an autosomal recessive inherited disease that causes progressive damage to the nervous system.

gets increasingly worse, I guess I've been more mindful of the difficulty of games. Ori And The Blind forest was a beautiful experience for for apart from the excessively difficult bits.  I stopped playing.  It was like two minutes of pixel perfect, fast-paced platforming.  And I was never going to do it.

 

It bummed me out.

 

 

 

I'm sorry in that case. I'm not going to pretend I didn't try to make you feel bad for playing the way you did, but I was equally trying to point out how much more fun challenge can generally be and how wonderful it is this hobby has it. For me gaming would have been far less a hobby if I simply breezed through Sonic 1/2 Master System as a kid. The fact either took months to finish and master is a feeling I'm sure most of us are familiar with.

Saying that, of course there's genres and games outright I simply accept I won't be amazing at or even finish. In my case I usually stop trying, but I don't suggest everyone should or that my way is right, certainly. (versus just making it easier) We're all unable at some type of shit or another, that's life.

 

36 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

"It's not a game".

 

Ok - why is that an important distinction to make? Who benefits?

 

Customers that expect game play from something they pay 10 bucks for. (Beginners Guide)

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"Challenge" along with it's frequently cited companion "Win/Lose States" are terrible, nebulous metrics for what is and isn't a game.

 

Are Sim City or MS Flight Simulator games or not (challenge but no win/lose state)? Are Ludo and Snakes and Ladders games or not (win/lose states but completely random so no challenge)?

 

Remember all those terrible magazine reviews of shmups in the PS1 era? "You can just continue through the whole game and get to the end in 30 minutes, no challenge at all. 3/10"

 

What about Fuel, a personal favourite from last gen. Is it a game when I'm in a race (challenge and win/lose states) and suddenly not a game in free roaming (no challenge or win/lose states)? If I get it into my head to travel from one side of the map to the other in free roaming mode does it instantly become a game again the moment I have that notion (challenge again)?

 

Are there different measures of "game"? Does that mean Rez has a different "game" quotient when played in Arcade, Travelling and Trance modes?

 

(HINT: It's all bullshit)

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13 minutes ago, NEG said:

Customers that expect game play from something they pay 10 bucks for. (Beginners Guide)

 

You don't get to close the gate on an medium because of lazy customers who don't want to have to consider their own game buying choices. If people are finding themselves disappointed that their blind purchase doesn't conform to their expectations, the answer most certainly is not to narrow the field.

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6 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

 

You don't get to close the gate on an medium because of lazy customers who don't want to have to consider their own game buying choices. If people are finding themselves disappointed that their blind purchase doesn't conform to their expectations, the answer most certainly is not to narrow the field.

 

Does widening to tape books equally achieve anything?

 

8 minutes ago, matt0 said:

"Challenge" along with it's frequently cited companion "Win/Lose States" are terrible, nebulous metrics for what is and isn't a game.

 

Are Sim City or MS Flight Simulator games or not (challenge but no win/lose state)? Are Ludo and Snakes and Ladders games or not (win/lose states but completely random so no challenge)?

 

Remember all those terrible magazine reviews of shmups in the PS1 era? "You can just continue through the whole game and get to the end in 30 minutes, no challenge at all. 3/10"

 

What about Fuel, a personal favourite from last gen. Is it a game when I'm in a race (challenge and win/lose states) and suddenly not a game in free roaming (no challenge or win/lose states)? If I get it into my head to travel from one side of the map to the other in free roaming mode does it instantly become a game again the moment I have that notion (challenge again)?

 

Are there different measures of "game"? Does that mean Rez has a different "game" quotient when played in Arcade, Travelling and Trance modes?

 

(HINT: It's all bullshit)

 

Animal Crossing is the most laid back game out there but it still has challenges. Nonetheless I get what you mean.

 

I get annoyed at my score resetting in a shmup, personally. And the one I've invested my time most into, Ikaruga, didn't allow you to play through to the end. 2-3 continues only. (GC version) Might have been adjustable but it had a Training Mode where you could select every part of every level to learn how to combo everything black and white like a mad man. :)

 

Fairly sure Rez had a start and finish/you could fail?

 

My mistake was I went full hardcore gaming fanboy earlier, where you shouldn't stop until your thumbs bleed. I accept the mistake.

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2 hours ago, Qazimod said:

I've never really taken too much of an interest in stuff like Dear Esther, Proteus, Gone Home or Stanley Parable, but I don't really think there's any benefit to excluding stuff like this from general gaming conversation either. Even genre labels like "walking simulators" and "notgames" don't seem that derogatory to me; it's just another part of gaming that some people enjoy. But yeah, maybe that kind of discussion needs its own thread.

 

I have no problem with "walking simulator". In recent days, I've played a driving simulator, a football simulator and a Scrooge McDuck simulator, so adding walking to the list of experiences I can enjoy on my sofa does a good job of encapsulating that sort of non-challenging exploration that I often find captivating.

4 minutes ago, NEG said:

 

Does widening to tape books equally achieve anything?

 

I'm not sure that sentence achieves anything. Could you please try again?

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Seriously neg, FFS. This is the wrong thread for it but fuck me you're full of shit. Spotting how many blue cars there are on a long car journey was a "game" I used to play and some of my favourite video games don't have much challenge either. As has been said sim city or flight sim or even LOGO was a game and to use a point of reference you will get, I got to the end of sonic 2 with absolutely no challenge at all when I played it as a youth doesn't mean it's any less of a game. Undertale by your own definition isn't much of a game as you can play it without doing much by the way of anything challenging. Either way you should realise that this forum is about video games in all their forms and people like different stuff. I'm also a film nerd and I'm not going to say any sort of mindless popcorn blockbuster isn't a film when put up against ran or battleship potemkin or something because I'm not a dick and appreciate the medium in all it's guises. You're getting a bit gamer gater again to be honest.

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Also, with regards to the "protecting the consumer" angle that sometimes crops up when games-not-games are discussed. Anyone who buys a game like Gone Home and expects a series of increasingly complex jumping puzzles while being pursued by a ghost or whatever is a moron. I'd sooner game developers weren't expected by default to design their games around the possibility that morons might play them.

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9 minutes ago, Fry Crayola said:

I'm not sure that sentence achieves anything. Could you please try again?

The time sponsored by Accuras will be Twenty One, Twenty One. Exactly. Beep. Beep. Beep.

 

6 minutes ago, b00dles said:

Seriously neg, FFS. This is the wrong thread for it but fuck me you're full of shit. Spotting how many blue cars there are on a long car journey was a "game" I used to play and some of my favourite video games don't have much challenge either. As has been said sim city or flight sim or even LOGO was a game and to use a point of reference you will get, I got to the end of sonic 2 with absolutely no challenge at all when I played it as a youth doesn't mean it's any less of a game. Undertale by your own definition isn't much of a game as you can play it without doing much by the way of anything challenging. Either way you should realise that this forum is about video games in all their forms and people like different stuff. I'm also a film nerd and I'm not going to say any sort of mindless popcorn blockbuster isn't a film when put up against ran or battleship potemkin or something because I'm not a dick and appreciate the medium in all it's guises. You're getting a bit gamer gater again to be honest.

 

Undertale is full of decision making and while it's challenge light (depending on choices) is very much a game in my book. Finding blue cars is fine as your using your eyes to FIND something. Lego games require you pressing buttons and pay attention (to some degree due to collecting things) repeatedly despite how easy they are.

 

Edit: We all have our preferences. Appreciating everything would mean appreciating EA for their day to day terrible-ness and DLC. Let's not go that far.

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1 minute ago, Scribblor said:

 

Seriously NEG, stop trying to be funny. Absolutely no-one on the forum thinks this shit is worth reading.

 

Now who's being the 'gatekeeper'.

 

1 minute ago, Scribblor said:

 

It doesn't fucking matter whether it's a game "in your book".

 

It does as it's my book (opinion). I'm not giving out copies now am I.

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1 hour ago, NEG said:

Customers that expect game play from something they pay 10 bucks for. (Beginners Guide)

 

I bought it on the strength of Stanley Parable, but haven't played it yet. I'll give you my thoughts on the game play in a few hours.I'm turning into you, NEG.

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The thing I notice with the "it's not a game" argument is it is something that keeps appearing over time before people eventually drop it and move on. From what I've read recently when doing a research project on it a lot of people didn't consider Rez much of a game when it came out, 15 years later most people would tell you that it is a brilliantly designed game.

A bad habit that often rears its head with games playing people is trying to put a definition on what a game is and what a game should be, which contradicts one of the the biggest pulls of the medium. As a creative medium video games are only limited by the imagination of the creator, okay granted not everyone has the time or funds to create a big sandbox like GTA but on the base level there is no limitations on what you can make a game do.

This is why I find games like Killer 7 so ingenious, because it is a game that created its own set of rules rather than base it's gameplay off pre-existing expectations of what games should be like. It is also why games like Gone Home and Facade were talked about so much when they came out.

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1 minute ago, Sprite Machine said:

It sounds like you do.

 

 You can hear my typing? :o

 

But no, I don't. I don't mind that stuff getting made or being on steam or things like that. I just suggested there's valid debate to be had when someone like Notch mentions 'walking simulators'. Whilst going into my own thoughts on what I deem is or isn't, of course.

 

1 minute ago, Sprite Machine said:

You can, but it's a pointless opinion

 

As is anyone's that's ever lived, my friend.

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Please don't stop quoting him when replying, as the User Ignore Script (which I haven't had time to update for the new forum version) uses quotes to hide posts which quote ignored users.

 

Scratch that, just stop rising to it at all (rllmuk has always been terrible at this :P)

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11 hours ago, NEG said:

 

Now who's being the 'gatekeeper'.

 

 

It does as it's my book (opinion). I'm not giving out copies now am I.

 

Fair enough about the gatekeeper bit. What I perhaps should have said is that your jokes aren't going down well in this thread because they make you look like you're not engaging with the subject. Especially when, as in this case, you give a nonsensical answer to someone who's said they don't understand what you meant in your previous post.

 

Edit: Sorry, replied on my phone without reading the rest of the thread. Didn't mean to keep the vacuous nonsense rolling.

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It's also a matter of tone NEG, you might have an opinion on what is a game or what isn't but the way you write just comes across like you're making the decisions on what counts as a game. There's very little use of even 'IMHO' so it just rubs the wrong way. I'm reluctant to ignore anyone so I don't want to do that but no one else in here is claiming in such definite terms what a game is or isn't and then you wade in and do just that, it's very annoying. Even if it is your opinion, it doesn't read like that.

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