Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Unofficial Who]

15 hours ago, PK said:

 

 I'm not sure I've seen the Batman's arse episode!  I'll have to have a look.

 

Aside from Sarkeesian herself, and her Kickstarter promises (I wasn't actually aware of the series until it was already released, so I'm afraid I'm not sure what that's referring to), what do you think about the points raised in the videos about how women are predominantly depicted in video games?  Do you think any of the trends that are highlighted are problematic?

 

 

It's here if you want to take a look.

 

 

I'm a fan of her work (obv) but I think this one was pretty poorly argued and delivered. A definite mis step.

 

There was debate about this on p459, around the 19th/20th of Jan. Opinion on this video was pretty divided back then if I remember rightly.

[rockstarjez]

On 2/26/2016 at 9:11 PM, Kryptonian said:

Rockstarjez won't be replying for 24 hours, sorry guys

 

Wow you are such a hero.

 

Don't worry I will stop posting in this thread now. But I will say just one thing! Stop moaning about video games and start enjoying them again.  

[Wroth]

why not both?

If everybody stopped moaning about videogames, they'd never get better.

 

And rllmuk would die.

[NEG]

And Sonic games would start selling well.

[Scribblor]

And nobody wants that.

[Unofficial Who]

I can't really comment on this one but the Mary Sue is about to hit some issues in regards to how much confidence readers will have in it.

 

https://medium.com/listen-to-my-story/what-i-learned-as-feminist-critic-sandy-beaches-f1ee45a7e0aa#.rcdst5q09

 

 

Quote

 

Who the hell am I and what is a Sandy Beaches?

I’m M---- A-------, former Aussie games writer and that guy that got fired over Gamergate. Sandy Beaches is an alter ego I set up to submit feminist critiques to publishers, managing to land myself two articles with The Mary Sue (one concerning combatting sexism in the Final Fantasy Remake, the other about the inherent sexism in the tabletop game Warmachine) and interest from editors on submissions I might like to make.

For those of you outside the writing game, getting a response from an editor is a pretty big deal. There are millions of keyboard jockeys out there dying to get a sentence onto the front page of a publication.

Why Sandy Beaches though?

Quite simply, I wanted to see how ridiculous and flagrantly wrong/untruthful I could be and get away with it. I’d had the FFVII/sexism article written well over a year ago, yet I didn’t pull the trigger. I thought, at the time, that it would be far too stupid and misinformed for any publication to run. However, as the articles regarding feminist complaints on…well everything…began to pile up, each one getting progressively less logical and more poorly argued, I decided it was time.

It is the most successful article I’ve ever written. More comments, more views, more shares, more threads, more responses, than anything I’ve ever done before. As of now, the FFVII/sexism article sits at around 1000 FB shares and 700+ comments, not including the multiple threads and video and article responses I’ve seen.

When you take into consideration I wrote this piece in about 30 minutes (35–40 including some editing I’ll get into later), the energy to reward ratio is unbelievable. I have put more effort into some of the shits I’ve taken than I have to either of the articles submitted.

I’d like to take you through some the things I learned as Sandy Beaches.

 

 

More at the link. I've edited out his name to avoid harrassment.

 

 

American McGee has pointed this out about this story.

Quote

 

disagreement is redefined as "harassment" and assigned the same power as physical assault. Shadow banning, timeline manipulation, and outright content filtering (by media outlets) are prelude to proper Orwellian controls we're being told are necessary for the protection of women, children, and other online oppressed people.

Those who critique games looking for sexism commit the same fallacy as those who trust headlines promoting the idea of sexist games (and gamers). You cannot know an issue by reading a headline - you cannot know a game by looking at its butts.

The problem we have - gamers and developers - is that we continue to believe the other side is interested in an honest discussion, that a debate can be had. Stories like the one of Sandy Beaches prove, once again, there is no debate, only an ongoing smear campaign designed to generate outrage, which will be used to excuse a destruction of individual rights.

 

 

(Just to make it clear, I'm in disagreement in the things being said here but it's important to always hear other voices. Please be respectful with your responses.)

Edited March 1, 2016 by Unofficial Who

[Unofficial Who]

For those interested in the columns published by the Mary Sue by "Sandy Beaches"

 

http://www.themarysue.com/warmachine-review/

 

http://www.themarysue.com/remake-final-fantasy-vii-without-the-sexism/

[Unofficial Who]

Not video game related at all but an interesting campaign in challenging traditional gender roles.

 

 

[Wroth]

So a gamergater being dishonest is proof that feminists are dishonest? Ok

 

regarding how impressed he is with how many views/comments his articles got, i'd like to know the ratio of agreement before deciding how significant that is. Katie Hopkins articles get a lot of views too.

[K]

"How I blew feminism wide open by briefly pretending not to be a misogynist."

[PK]

On 2/27/2016 at 9:44 PM, rockstarjez said:

 

Don't worry I will stop posting in this thread now. But I will say just one thing! Stop moaning about video games and start enjoying them again.  

 

That's a shame.  If you do change your mind I was honestly interested in discussing these videos with you!

 

However, regarding your last thing - it's very much possible to enjoy video games while simultaneously recognising that they are contributing to unhealthy depictions of women, or war, or blue hedgehogs or whatever else.  Criticism of a piece of artistic work doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with disliking it or wanting it changed.  Sarkeesian makes that exact point at the start of each of her videos, I assume in an attempt to let viewers know that she's not saying "this sort of thing should be banned" but just "this sort of thing exists, wouldn't it be good if another sort of thing existed too".

[Alex W.]

 

He seems to reckon that pointing out that Tifa is ridiculously proportioned is some sort of amazing send-up of extreme feminism. I think that says more about Gamergate than anything else.

 

As for McGee's continued regurgitation of standard Gamergate talking points:

 

 

Quote

 

disagreement is redefined as "harassment"

 

This comes up time and again without support. You can't say that calling someone up in the middle of the night and yelling at them over the phone "disagreement".

 

 

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and assigned the same power as physical assault

 

It really isn't.

 

 

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Shadow banning,

 

Gamergate has decided that when they're ignored on Twitter, Facebook etc. it's because their accounts have been invisibly added to every user's ignore lists, which isn't even a facility those platforms provide.

 

 

Quote

timeline manipulation

 

This is when people point out the actual sequence of events behind the "Quinnspiracy" they completely refuse to let go of.

 

Quote

and outright content filtering (by media outlets) are prelude to proper Orwellian controls we're being told are necessary for the protection of women, children, and other online oppressed people

 

It's just paranoid ranting at this point.

 

I really have lost all respect for McGee off the back of his Facebook posts. I was willing to cut him some slack when he interpreted "What if I didn't know mercy?" as being some reference to his missing sister and an anti-Gamergate threat, but it's clear that he's gone completely off the deep end into some persecution fantasy of his own devising.

[Unofficial Who]

To be fair whenever my sibling went missing (which was quite common when he was in his 20's) I jumped at shadows as well. And that was before the amplifying effect of social media.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

I don't think that's any justification for other people to signal-boost the paranoia as Another Valuable Perspective though.

[David Kenny]

Those articles do highlight the absolutely appalling quality of most internet "journalism". I can't believe an editor read that Final Fantasy one and didn't rip it to pieces.

[Alex W.]

Just now, David Kenny said:

Those articles do highlight the absolutely appalling quality of most internet "journalism". I can't believe an editor read that Final Fantasy one and didn't rip it to pieces.

 

I guess they figured they were going to be nice to someone inexperienced who wanted to write about their thoughts on a game. Can't have that! Thanks Gamergate!

[matt0]

American McGee unwittingly highlights one of the inherent assumptions in a lot of GG and tangential rhetoric:

 

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The problem we have - gamers and developers - is that we continue to believe the other side is interested in an honest discussion,

 

The (probably unconscious) assumption that any feminist criticism can only be coming from outside games. That a true "gamer" could never ask these questions of developers or the industry, that a true developer would never be engaged in these issues or quandaries. That there's one side who play and make games, and one side who have concerns about the depiction of women in games.

[Sprite Machine]

On 27/02/2016 at 9:44 PM, rockstarjez said:

But I will say just one thing! Stop moaning about video games and start enjoying them again.  

You've never criticised anything about games, then? What does "stop moaning" mean if not "be completely accepting of things exactly as they are and never ask for anything more"? It's a baffling stance to take.

Do you not understand that:
a.) it's possible (and usually necessary) to enjoy something of which you wish to criticise aspects?
b.) we moan because we want games to be even better because we enjoy them?

I mean, I might as well say to you "stop moaning about forum members and start enjoying us again" for all the fucking sense that makes.

[b00dles]

I don't understand that either, if anything, some of my favourite games I'm far more vocal in regards to ''moaning about' because they're really great and almost there in terms of being utterly fantastic. If there's nothing you can suggest as an improvement or tweak to a game then you're not thinking about it much if you ask me.

 

Xcom2 being my current most played has got LOADS of things in it which I think could improve it and the TBS genre to some degree, that's aside from the bugs etc it has, just things about gameplay, UI, story etc etc but it's all done because I really enjoy it.

 

I don't bother moaning about things like CoD or other corridor shooters because I don't really enjoy them much but that's not to say I think they're perfect, if anything, I think the brainless Michael Bay-esque shooter has waaaaaay more things to moan about but I don't because a lot of my issue with them is I don't really like them as a genre.

[Unofficial Who]

34 minutes ago, Alex W. said:

 

I guess they figured they were going to be nice to someone inexperienced who wanted to write about their thoughts on a game. Can't have that! Thanks Gamergate!

 

Yeah. The bit I found a bit gross to be boasting about

Quote

I was also granted complete anonymity from the outset. I told my editors I was afraid of being doxxed and harassed, and so I was Sandy Beaches. No verification. No further questions on who I was or what my previous experience was like. I could have been anyone, and it turns out, I was.

 

 

Yep. That's going to make things loads better. Any future freelancers who want to be published under a pseudonym will probably be flatly refused. And with that a lot of woman who don't want the full Zoe treatment just won't submit.

 

I think he's more than proved the point he wanted to make. It might make things worse for other women who at the end of the day don't have the option of pulling off a mask and saying "tadah! I was a dude all along!"

[Sprite Machine]

I don't quite get the point of that Mary Sue article. Somebody tried to 'parody' a feminist but ended up making a few reasonable points, therefore... joke's on you?

[matt0]

1 minute ago, Sprite Machine said:

I don't quite get the point of that Mary Sue article. Somebody tried to 'parody' a feminist but ended up making a few reasonable points, therefore... joke's on you?

 

My takeaway is that he though the reasonable points were crazy and extreme when he wrote them. Showcasing what an utter loon he is, even before he went and submitted the articles under a pseudonym.

[K]

It's a bit like that time the Daily Mail did a devastating expose of food banks, in which their reporter cleverly tricked someone into giving them food by pretending to be desperately hungry and in dire need. It's the same thing here - I pretended to be a vulnerable person who was afraid of being publically humiliated, and those idiots believed me! Nice job, suckers!

[Darren]

I must admit I'm quite confused by this fake Mary Sue business.

 

As far as I can tell it's equivalent to a flat earther submitting a "10 Reasons We Know the Earth is Actually Round" article to a science website, getting it published, then saying "Aha! I don't actually believe anything I wrote in that article, but you fell for it! Therefore this proves that the world is actually flat!"

 

Or am I wrong? As I say, I am quite confused.

[Rev]

4 minutes ago, Darren said:

I must admit I'm quite confused by this fake Mary Sue business.

 

As far as I can tell it's equivalent to a flat earther submitting a "10 Reasons We Know the Earth is Actually Round" article to a science website, getting it published, then saying "Aha! I don't actually believe anything I wrote in that article, but you fell for it! Therefore this proves that the world is actually flat!"

 

Or am I wrong? As I say, I am quite confused.

 

The only bit of note is that he claims he typed them up quickly (and then left it for a year...I'm not sure I'm convinced about that speed thing) and that they're shit. There's some ideas in there, but it is still shit.

 

That said, whilst he claims he got offered $300 for an article he didn't write he doesn't mention what he got for these. Well, they're listed on his author page as being from a contributor:

 

http://www.themarysue.com/guest-author/sandy-beaches/

 

And what do contributors get paid?

 

http://www.themarysue.com/contributors/

 

That's right. Nothing at all. This is probably a fair explanation of why they published some shit anonymously. Because it's clearly marked as not by staff and they didn't pay for it.

[Scribblor]

1 hour ago, PK said:

 

That's a shame.  If you do change your mind I was honestly interested in discussing these videos with you!

 

That's my fault, sorry. I was so sick of him just turning up and saying "triggered you, you SJW white knight l00z3rz!" and it derailing the thread. I checked his post history, and for months now all he's done on the forum is post nonsense in here, so I reported him.

 

If I'd thought there was any chance of him honestly discussing the videos, like NEG and Shrew do even though they often disagree with most people here (or misunderstand what the videos are saying) I wouldn't have reported his post. But realistically, given his posting history and his videos and tweets and everything I know about him, he's got no interest in actually engaging in discussion.

[Unofficial Who]

15 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

http://www.themarysue.com/contributors/

 

That's right. Nothing at all. This is probably a fair explanation of why they published some shit anonymously. Because it's clearly marked as not by staff and they didn't pay for it.

 

That's an issue in and of itself. A lot of local feminist blogs and podcasts are now making it a point to pay all contributors as a way to counter the common issue of women being expected to supply labour for free or at their own cost.

[NEG]

3 hours ago, Unofficial Who said:

I can't really comment on this one but the Mary Sue is about to hit some issues in regards to how much confidence readers will have in it.

 

https://medium.com/listen-to-my-story/what-i-learned-as-feminist-critic-sandy-beaches-f1ee45a7e0aa#.rcdst5q09

 

 

 

 

More at the link. I've edited out his name to avoid harrassment.

 

 

American McGee has pointed this out about this story.

 

 

(Just to make it clear, I'm in disagreement in the things being said here but it's important to always hear other voices. Please be respectful with your responses.)

 

I don't think it's unfair to say there are people out there that could care less about context when being pro-fem. The issue is far beyond the voices of this forum, so expecting the same level of quality everywhere is of course impossible.

It's the 'me too' mentality. You feel good being a part of something, regardless of if your going about it the right way when it comes to practice. Can end up saying yes to anything fellow supporters are.

I wouldn't call him a GGer simply because he pointed out an obvious factor in life, but it's certainly not a big fuss as he's trying to make out either. He certainly didn't need the crude humour.

[Rev]

2 minutes ago, Unofficial Who said:

 

That's an issue in and of itself. A lot of local feminist blogs and podcasts are now making it a point to pay all contributors as a way to counter the common issue of women being expected to supply labour for free or at their own cost.

 

My first reaction was to see whether he was paid, such is my experience as a writer.

 

To be fair, I don't mind that approach of having staff and people clearly de-marked as volunteer contributors. I disapprove of anyone volunteering unless they've got something specific to promote, mind.

[Alex W.]

What I'm getting here is that another great Gamergate expose has backfired.