Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[David Kenny]

1 minute ago, sir_shrew said:

 

Or that winning isn't worth the effort.

 

You talk as if you have any more of an idea of what is going on beyond what you've read online. 

 

It's more that I believed the reasons she gave, rather than making up reasons that better fit my idea of what is going on.

[Rev]

1 minute ago, sir_shrew said:

 

Or that winning isn't worth the effort.

 

You talk as if you have any more of an idea of what is going on beyond what you've read online. 

 

He talks as if he read the words she wrote in the order she wrote them in.

[Alex W.]

7 minutes ago, sir_shrew said:

The words she wrote, which people on this forum inaccurately construed as evidence she had been forced to drop charges against her abuser.

 

Again, I don't think we're using the word "forced" in the same way you are.

[NEG]

This has nothing to do with games guys and girls (and frogs). Off-Topic now has a general misoginy/feminism/butts thread:

Of course, I'm probably wrong so please continue.

[ZOK]

3 hours ago, The Bag said:

Guy who wrote the BBC article is discussing it a bit on Reddit 

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/469pka/the_dark_side_of_gaming_ive_been_called_a_curry/d03g444 

 

It's hilarious if you read the comments. All the people congratulating him on what a well written article it is! 

 

They really have no clue.

[Anne Summers]

55 minutes ago, NEG said:

This has nothing to do with games guys and girls (and frogs). Off-Topic now has a general misoginy/feminism/butts thread:

Of course, I'm probably wrong so please continue.

 

Think I sort of decided over the last couple of days that OT isn't quite ready for a dedicated bona fide feminism thread. 

 

 

[Dudley]

I really don't like those protesters because the one place he's right is talking about openness to new ideas.

 

I want to hear him talk, because then I can go research and pull apart his "facts".  Because that's where *I* want to win. (Not that he practices what he preaches there of course)  The scenes at Rutgers and here are just pathetic and help no-one except Milo.

 

To the point where, in this later posted talk, given how quietly they go, I would really not be surprised if they're plants.

[Unofficial Who]

5 hours ago, Harsin said:

 

 

 

"He is [TB], as I'm sure you will agree, a figure in the gaming world."

 

I feel a Pulitzer coming any day now.

 

 

The short film he talks about is here

 

[Nick R]

9 hours ago, The Bag said:

Guy who wrote the BBC article is discussing it a bit on Reddit 

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/469pka/the_dark_side_of_gaming_ive_been_called_a_curry/d03g444 

 

http://www.pointandclickbait.com/2016/02/game-journalist-opinion-reddit-thread/

[rockstarjez]

Male Feminists.. LOL!!

 

 

[The Bag]

yawn

[Alex W.]

8 hours ago, Nick R said:

 

http://www.pointandclickbait.com/2016/02/game-journalist-opinion-reddit-thread/

http://www.clickhole.com/article/summary-gamergate-movement-we-will-immediately-cha-1241

[Shoes]

Why did I read the comments on the BBC3 thing?

 

' Of course abuse happens to women online. It happens to men too. Should it be that way? No of course not. Gaming should be an inclusive hobby irrespective of gender, sexual orientation or whatever else makes us different. Sadly the BBC have once again made women to look like crazy drum beating feminists.'

 

Christ.

[Dig Dug]

That reminds me, I decided to check out my uni's gaming society for the first time in months this week. Boy the committee there have some huge beef with the Feminist society (not that them being anti-feminist is new or anything), it was all coming out, "they're man haters", "they banned one of our (female) committee members from their meets", "I don't need to go to their events to know what they are like", "have you seen the rubbish they put on facebook?"

 

The fact that everyone there just nodded and agreed with him reminded me why I often feel so detached when it comes to other people who play games. A lot of game playing people I meet genuinely seem unable to compromise on things and view those with opposing ideologies as enemies. I don't want it to be that way, gaming is what made me decide to learn about feminism in the first place because sharing opposing ideas and challenging each other is huge part of higher education. I'm aware this isn't exclusive to gaming either, I just find it bothersome that something made on good intentions often gets demonized by those who aren't even willing to give it a chance.

People can have their disagreements but be respectful about it, that's all it takes.

[NEG]

I think it's a case of the base premise not quite being clear enough to people, as it wasn't for me at the start. Less about censorship and guy hate and more about 'Why has female portrayal in games been generally unthoughtful (disproportionately so) till recent years? Let's discuss'.

 

I wouldn't blame the naysayers as its generally hard seeing it from a female viewpoint when your not female, are only listening to the media you're used to when it comes to games, and searching information brings up a splurge of mess that isn't quite clear to decyther for, say, the average 13 year old brought up on Call of Duty and Fifa/Madden 5000/Japanese Bikini Clad RPG Simulator. A lot of the youngsters don't know any better in this boobs in your face led media world. (excluding Geekette's kids of course)

 

It's the marketing side of things I'd change when it comes to tropes stuff. It needs to come off less to some people as 'Lets change games!' or 'Lets get asexual! Sex doesn't exist!' and more 'Are you really comfortable with how some things are portrayed? Shall we discuss why the industry in general has deemed it as normal this long?' More respected developers need to shout that decisions were not carried out as an act of censorship, also. Situations like the one The Bag described (Fable 2) which came across to me as 'we wanted to avoid drama' doesn't help nor encourage anyone delving deeper, in my view.

 

The butts misfire hasn't helped either.

 

20 hours ago, Anne Summers said:

 

Think I sort of decided over the last couple of days that OT isn't quite ready for a dedicated bona fide feminism thread. 

 

 

 

Insert joke about social engineering not going as far as you'd like right now, eh? The more people discussing the better, in my view.

[Alex W.]

40 minutes ago, NEG said:

I think it's a case of the base premise not quite being clear enough to people, as it wasn't for me at the start. Less about censorship and guy hate and more about 'Why has female portrayal in games been generally unthoughtful (disproportionately so) till recent years? Let's discuss'.

 

It would take a truly colossal dedication to self-deception to read Tropes vs Women's premise as being "about censorship and guy hate".

[NEG]

And yet that's what people are shouting about most from the GG end, no? They somehow manage to spin it as such because they know not everyone is going to listen to the relevant stuff. Perhaps even a easier conclusion to take in for the small minded.

[Alex W.]

That's not a fault of anything they're doing with the series, though, which has always been upfront. That's a result of there being a community of loud but uncritical gamers willing to knowingly or unknowingly perpetuate a lie. As a corollary, there's little they can change about the series to change that perception, because the people who believe that lie aren't basing their views on anything that's actually in the series.

[The Bag]

2 hours ago, NEG said:

Situations like the one The Bag described (Fable 2) which came across to me as 'we wanted to avoid drama' doesn't help nor encourage anyone delving deeper, in my view.

 

Um, which situation for Fable 2?  The prostitutes are in there, I'm saying I probably wouldn't put them in now (I'm a big reason they are in there) but that's not to avoid drama that's because how I view the work has changed and I no longer see it on its own but as part of a larger cultural experience.  There was something that didn't ship in Fable 2 I almost quit over being taken out, but again it's not something to go to the wall for - as an employee of a company it's not my place to make those calls, I can make my argument but it's not my final decision.

 

Delving deeper into what?

 

Or do you mean the easter eggs in The Movies and Black & White 2 - it's easy to have a hard stance on things when you're not the one who will get fired & the company you work for sued by their publisher.  Or do you mean the line I changed in MMA Manager, it's a better line, but yes I changed it to avoid any chance of getting caught up in the GG twitterstorm.  

 

Anyone who uses the line "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is an idiot who has never really been involved in anything or at the receiving end of anything.

[Sprite Machine]

NEG thinks that changing your mind about something because of what somebody else says is the same as that person censoring you.

It's presumably a similar train of thought that led to lots of GG supporters thinking that consensus is the same as collusion. And why conspiracy theories propagate.

Basically, an awful lot of people are awfully bad at thinking.

[NEG]

1 hour ago, Alex W. said:

That's not a fault of anything they're doing with the series, though, which has always been upfront. That's a result of there being a community of loud but uncritical gamers willing to knowingly or unknowingly perpetuate a lie. As a corollary, there's little they can change about the series to change that perception, because the people who believe that lie aren't basing their views on anything that's actually in the series.

 

Didn't mean primarily Anita's videos but the subject as a whole. For me for example the forum helped far more as a means of understanding than most videos on the subject for or misguidedly against.

 

1 hour ago, The Bag said:

 

Um, which situation for Fable 2?  The prostitutes are in there, I'm saying I probably wouldn't put them in now (I'm a big reason they are in there) but that's not to avoid drama that's because how I view the work has changed and I no longer see it on its own but as part of a larger cultural experience.  There was something that didn't ship in Fable 2 I almost quit over being taken out, but again it's not something to go to the wall for - as an employee of a company it's not my place to make those calls, I can make my argument but it's not my final decision.

 

I must have misread in that case. Read it as 'We decided against putting in something to not cause drama'. Hence my 'I would have left it in' response the other day.

 

1 hour ago, The Bag said:

Delving deeper into what?

 

Facts, figures and popcorn. (Into the subject in a way that doesn't seclude from either side).

 

1 hour ago, The Bag said:

Anyone who uses the line "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is an idiot who has never really been involved in anything or at the receiving end of anything.

 

Insert J.J.J picture here. Big publishers are able to walk on fire, no one should be afraid, if anything that's something that needs to be said more often.

[NEG]

48 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

NEG thinks that changing your mind about something because of what somebody else says is the same as that person censoring you.

 

I'm saying common sense is harder to grasp on the internet sometimes for many, many reasons. Not everyone is the same.

 

I'm not excusing them, but I imagine many of the blind faithful to have been sheep enough to not look past the end of their nose.

 

I'm basically pondering how/why GG can have supporters in the first place. Thus my posts today.

[Rev]

19 minutes ago, NEG said:

 

I'm saying common sense is harder to grasp on the internet sometimes for many, many reasons. Not everyone is the same.

 

I'm not excusing them, but I imagine many of the blind faithful to have been sheep enough to not look past the end of their nose.

 

I'm basically pondering how/why GG can have supporters in the first place. Thus my posts today.

 

GG has supporters because many people treat videogames as their retreat from the real world and they're worried that any changes, particularly ones coming from such a different background to their own, will threaten their safe space.

[matt0]

28 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

GG has supporters because many people treat videogames as their retreat from the real world and they're worried that any changes, particularly ones coming from such a different background to their own, will threaten their safe space.

 

I reckon this is about right and the fallout from it highlights just how little real world experience some people who are emotionally invested in games have. 

 

One of the things that sticks out for me is this idea that games have no effect on the people who play them which seems like a much more extreme proposition than the idea that we can be influenced by them. I doubt many people would maintain that books or films or music don't communicate ideas beyond the surface level so the idea that games are somehow exempt or incapable of this doesn't hold up for me.

 

I think about this stuff a lot because I'm in my mid 30s and I think I'm finally at the point of admitting to myself that games are my favourite thing, out of music, movies, novels etc. I've definitely spent more time with them than any other more medium despite their many faults and I wonder what effect that's had on me.

 

Also the ideal of games being pure escapism doesn't sit well with me - firstly it ignores the fact that there have always been games that try and model or reflect reality, and secondly it ignores that fact that the reality of the people who make creative works always bleeds in around the edges. Like how even at the very least a Z-grade trash fantasy or sci-fi novel tells you something about the author.

 

I've got loads more to write about this but I'm on my phone so... will save it for later. 

[NEG]

1 hour ago, Rev said:

 

GG has supporters because many people treat videogames as their retreat from the real world and they're worried that any changes, particularly ones coming from such a different background to their own, will threaten their safe space.

 

Strange, as the gaming industry has always been changing and never catered for just a specific kind of video gamer. Eg: I love arcade games, they still exist (Resogun) but sure I can complain there isn't enough of them these days. If anything new types of games and genres should always be celebrated, no matter how bonkers nuts it may seem to me at first (the rise of free to play comes to mind, for example. I'm fine with it now and even had fun over the years with it myself.)*

 

Different background just in gender or general lifestyle like Matt suggests? (which would make sense for some of it, indeed)

 

*It'll be a cold day in hell when I accept a all-digital non-physical future alongside incomplete released games and Amiibo DLC though.**

 

**Ignore the fact I want a Steam Box for the living room.

[Rev]

In my opinion if the "threat" to videogames had come from, say, the rich then GG would be a communist movement, or if it had come from the government it'd be siding with anarchists. The perceived threat came from women, largely by sheer coincidence of timing, so it's an anti-feminism/MRA movement.

 

Somehow that makes it even worse than it being a true MRA movement. If it was, there'd be an argument against it but as there isn't, as it is so vague and nebulous, any coherent argument against it just makes them shift to some other stance, rather than having to change their mind.

 

It'll continue fading, but unless it ever takes a specific position I can't see it ever entirely disappearing.

[Rev]

3 minutes ago, NEG said:

 

Strange, as the gaming industry has always been changing and never catered for just a specific kind of video gamer. Eg: I love arcade games, they still exist (Resogun) but sure I can complain there isn't enough of them these days. If anything new types of games and genres should always be celebrated, no matter how bonkers nuts it may seem to me at first (the rise of free to play comes to mind, for example. I'm fine with it now and even had fun over the years with it myself.)*

 

Different background just in gender or general lifestyle like Matt suggests? (which would make sense for some of it, indeed)

 

*It'll be a cold day in hell when I accept a all-digital non-physical future alongside incomplete released games and Amiibo DLC though.**

 

**Ignore the fact I want a Steam Box for the living room.

 

Different background in every way. In the case of Anita, it is my suspicion the fact she comes from an academic background would have been enough to make her a target, even if GG hadn't been about gender.

[Dudley]

2 hours ago, Rev said:

 

GG has supporters because many people treat videogames as their retreat from the real world and they're worried that any changes, particularly ones coming from such a different background to their own, will threaten their safe space.

 

Which is interesting given their Ice Cream headed god Milo rages against such concepts so often.

[Alex W.]

1 hour ago, Rev said:

 

Different background in every way. In the case of Anita, it is my suspicion the fact she comes from an academic background would have been enough to make her a target, even if GG hadn't been about gender.

 

The antifeminism thing had been rolling in various geek circles a bit before that. Penny Arcade were really mad that some people disliked a rape joke they did, Dawkins shit himself over that elevator commemt, lots of people got upset when PAX started telling people not to harass women etc. etc.

 

It doesn't have too much to do with Sarkeesian, there was a critical mass of reactionary crap before then.

[Unofficial Who]

I think Anita was percieved as an easy target at the time. Zoe was pretty much dumped in as the perfect victim by her ex.

 

Anyway, I think things will change over the next five plus years culturally within gaming, as Neg says there's always different trands in games and a shift is happening right about now.

 

Over the past ten years there was a push to make gaming more friendly in it's design. The Idle Thumbs crew were talking recently about the 360 generation of games where all the rough edges were smoothed off so you could journey from the beginning to the end. And that's been a great thing for some of us who face awful challenges in the real world. It's been great to be able to come home and kick back and be the most important person in the universe and get some easy wins. Sometimes you need something like that to help you carry on through the day.

 

However the downside is that we seem to have created almost an entitlement culture. A blend of "the customer is alway right" combined with easy access to content creators has created this weird situation where mobs can essentially destroy someone or hound them out of the industry. This combined with a zero sum game mentality where more Gone Homes, Depression Quests and Cibelles must mean less Call Of Duty, Battlefields etc. And for some reason this has focused on women a lot as it seems to have been tangled up in the culture wars.

 

I've been listening recently to a comedian talking about audience entitlement and how some of the criticism he gets on twitter is "you're not a comedian." Not "that joke wasn't funny" or "I had issues with that one joke." It's people telling him that he should quit comedy as in their view he isn't funny. But as he says it's like any creative endeavour. By sheer force of statistics he isn't going to be funny to the majority of people on the planet. He likens the entitlement that some feel as going to the kitchen and then complaining that the majority of it's contents are inedible. "It started well with the cake, but I'm allergic to nuts and don't get me started on how difficult it was to eat the sink." Some guys seem to be getting upset that despite the gaming audience being almost 50% women only 75% or so of games are aimed at the traditional male demographic

 

I think though it's too late to hold back the tide and it isn't just because of Bioware of Campo Santo. I think it's the next generation of gamers that are going to create this cultural shift whether anyone likes it or not. Look at what the kids are playing today. Minecraft. Kerbal Space Program. Dark Souls. These aren't hand holdy games. They're all about learning systems. They're all about surviving in universes that don't give a shit about you. And they're pretty much asexual or gender fluid games. I think much to the horror of some men in my generation the next generation don't seem to give a shit about gender in games or in culture. Who cares if your Minecraft av is male or female? It's all about what you can bring to the game, what you can contribute.