Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Uncle Mike]

Double face palms is what I feel like whenever I see that yet another person has taken the time to quote and reply to NEG.

Don't feed the troll, guys. Internet 101.

[Gambit]

Banning him from the thread will solve all these problems.

[Sprite Machine]

Because the world fucked up till a certain point against one of the genders?

Which point was that? Are you suggesting it stopped?

[Qazimod]

I forgot who posted it but there was an article posted on here a while back about how the original DOA extreme was a bit odd in that it was at face value a fanservice game but at the same time contained a lot of what the writer described as feminist game concepts such as the games single player focus on building relationships between the characters, lack of any violence and the emphasis on enjoying holiday activities.

In hindsight there really was an excellent holiday sim in there its just it was presented to appeal to a certain audience.

A game like that could have found a diverse audience but instead they made the breast physics a focus of the sequel which ruined any chance of the series finding a wider audience as an innocent guilty pleasure.

Considering the beach holiday is a theme has shown to be appealing to a large number of people in the past (all media, not just games) it would totally be worth experimenting with the theme in a game. DOA extreme was a legitmately good game, if someone made a title that was just as solid but more friendly to bigger audiences then I think it could do well. It might be a game that finds its audiences better on mobile devices than consoles.

I'm rambling but I think it is a missed oppitunity that DOAX is the only thing on the market for this kind of game.

There was a PSP game called DoA Paradise a while back, and for all intents and purposes it was DoAX with less volleyball. I think there was an in-game calendar and you could do different events like play volleyball, customise your appearance and buy new stuff, gamble at the casino for money and chat with other girls. It would have still been pretty hard to enjoy because of DoA's love for boobs and skimpy costumes, but it sounded as though it played like a relaxed toybox with few major goals - not quite Animal Crossing but certainly not an ordinary sports game. If it didn't have all of the gross DoA-ness attached to it, it might have been an interesting game concept...

[Rowan Morrison]

It'd surely be similar to a properly online Wii Sports Resort, with Miis as player avatars and elements of Crossing grafted on, and also Pilotwings while I'm loitering around the wishing well. You could wander round the island dipping into various activities, organised special events, ad hoc contents and suchlike. Never going to happen with Nintendo, but maybe Sony could relauch Home as a half-arsed attempt.

[TehStu]

I've been assured that NEG isn't trolling, make of that what you will.

So you rather no sexualisation ever, Anne? Because the world fucked up till a certain point against one of the genders? That causes sexiness to not be 'justifed'?

You're right, we either have sexualization ALL THE TIME or NONE AT ALL. Binary, nothing in between. Further, going all-in on sexualization will help with sexism, because: {exercise for the interested reader}.

I assure you the opportunities of my Diablo character hasn't been affected by having the choice of what they're wearing visually.

By the way, this is the 10% you referred to. Or you simply don't understand the issue. Or, it's one of your well crafted jokes, ha ha.

[Nobuo's Organ]

It'd surely be similar to a properly online Wii Sports Resort, with Miis as player avatars and elements of Crossing grafted on, and also Pilotwings while I'm loitering around the wishing well. You could wander round the island dipping into various activities, organised special events, ad hoc contents and suchlike. Never going to happen with Nintendo, but maybe Sony could relauch Home as a half-arsed attempt.

Go Vacation 2, eh?

[Rowan Morrison]

Go Vacation 2, eh?

I'd forgotten about that. But yes! All smushed up with Miiverse or something, but I expect that ship has sailed and been scuttled.

[NEG]

I should probably just make my own thread like Stu suggested earlier, comment on new videos and links in there.

The Disney link earlier, for example. They do realize most of these fairytales are eons old, right? Sure that doesn't make Disney guilt-free when adapting, but what do you expect them to do? Make Mulan male?

Most of the side characters are not even integral to the story and are comic relief, so amount of words spoken by them coming off as more by the end of a movie doesn't come off as much worth discussion-wise.

Which point was that? Are you suggesting it stopped?

When it comes to video games the thread agreed it's been much better generally in recent years, I kept noting from the start myself that that's largely because of indie titles existing, and the audience/consumer-base growing.

I've been assured that NEG isn't trolling, make of that what you will.

You're right, we either have sexualization ALL THE TIME or NONE AT ALL. Binary, nothing in between. Further, going all-in on sexualization will help with sexism, because: {exercise for the interested reader}.

By the way, this is the 10% you referred to. Or you simply don't understand the issue. Or, it's one of your well crafted jokes, ha ha.

Huh?

[K]

Making your own thread to comment on things is the best idea I've heard yet. Please do that.

[TehStu]

The Disney link earlier, for example. They do realize most of these fairytales are eons old, right? Sure that doesn't make Disney guilt-free when adapting, but what do you expect them to do? Make Mulan male?

No, because that knackers the entire premise of Mulan, and isn't a good suggestion. However, Disney ARE changing their approach, as society changes. I think it's fair to go back and appraise earlier works, though - we've already had this discussion over that "lord of the manor" scene when the dad arrives home from working at the bank in Mary Poppins.

Huh?

If there's something specific I can respond to, let me know.

[Shoes]

Making your own thread to comment on things is the best idea I've heard yet. Please do that.

Or, better yet, a YouTube channel! Or a Tumblr. Twitter? WordPress? Somewhere not here.

[NEG]

No, because that knackers the entire premise of Mulan, and isn't a good suggestion. However, Disney ARE changing their approach, as society changes. I think it's fair to go back and appraise earlier works, though - we've already had this discussion over that "lord of the manor" scene when the dad arrives home from working at the bank in Mary Poppins.

If there's something specific I can respond to, let me know.

Chose Mulan as an example where gender matters to the story, no matter what today's society may think. If I'm adapting the story for a modern audience, I wouldn't change it. 'Well of course you wouldn't change it' isn't the point. You have to respect the original tale. Well, if I am the director I would, anyway.

I'll put it another way, while there's nothing particularly wrong with a female Aladdin or Doctor Who, you would be nonetheless going against 50 years and thousands of years of tradition/storytelling for the sake of appealing to current trends. And whilst all adaptation does to a degree, a simple sex swap solves nothing to me when it comes to speech equality, which is what the article came off as to me. Good writing is divine no matter whom speaks them. 90's Disney will always be amaze.

[TehStu]

If it's a lousy tradition, so be it. You make it sound like these "current trends" are a fad - no mate, it's enlightenment. Now, if it changes the story*, you could argue they don't necessarily need to alter the character structure. But new stuff, like Brave? They should have at it.

*it wouldn't change Dr Who, it would just piss off "traditionalists"

[matt0]

The character gender swap strawman - note how the article and nobody in the thread put forward swapping the genders of characters as a solution to the lack of female voice in Disney movies.

Also as TehStu points out NEGs (probably unwitting) implication that feminism or even just acknowledging women in fiction is a "trend". Something that will happily be reversed at some point in the future so he doesn't have to tax himself thinking about the function of wetsuits or the temperature of the sea.

[NEG]

If it's a lousy tradition, so be it. You make it sound like these "current trends" are a fad - no mate, it's enlightenment. Now, if it changes the story*, you could argue they don't necessarily need to alter the character structure. But new stuff, like Brave? They should have at it.

*it wouldn't change Dr Who, it would just piss off "traditionalists"

Today's values are not a fad, no. But they are today's values nonetheless, and not yesterdays.

The character gender swap strawman - note how the article and nobody in the thread put forward swapping the genders of characters as a solution to the lack of female voice in Disney movies.

Also as TehStu points out NEGs (probably unwitting) implication that feminism or even just acknowledging women in fiction is a "trend". Something that will happily be reversed at some point in the future so he doesn't have to tax himself thinking about the function of wetsuits or the temperature of the sea.

It was the first idea that came to mind as to how could script be improved in any way by the characters that speak them, gender swap would arguably work/what I expected the solution to be by those not thinking too hard about it in future/from this point forwards.

[Alex W.]

The character gender swap strawman - note how the article and nobody in the thread put forward swapping the genders of characters as a solution to the lack of female voice in Disney movies.

Also as TehStu points out NEGs (probably unwitting) implication that feminism or even just acknowledging women in fiction is a "trend". Something that will happily be reversed at some point in the future so he doesn't have to tax himself thinking about the function of wetsuits or the temperature of the sea.

Here's a depressing thought: the Sad Puppies are a thing decades after SF embraced radical ideas like gender equality, so we're probably still going to have a group of gamers waiting for social justice to "blow over" when we're all in retirement homes.

[matt0]

It was the first idea that came to mind as to how could script be improved in any way by the characters that speak them, gender swap would arguably work/what I expected the solution to be by those not thinking too hard about it in future/from this point forwards.

It occurred to you to swap a characters gender before it occurred to you to just write more scenes and dialogue for the women?

[NEG]

No, what I thought people writing these films will do, rather then what the correct method would be (writing more scenes and dialogue for women). But like I said, the complaint is not valid enough to me because of the reasons I mentioned such as side characters not impacting the female cast in the first place. It's a moot point at best.

Edit: There is little gain in fiction speech equality. The story is what matters. All the characters could be frogs, you'd be happy with the amount of dialogue each frog gets at that point, correct?

[TehStu]

Today's values are not a fad, no. But they are today's values nonetheless, and not yesterdays.

Yesterday's values should be constantly appraised, and luckily we have records of them in film, books, and other media. Now, that's not to necessarily say I would edit an older story to foist it on modern values (thus altering it), but I'm not sure if you're alluding to that.

I hope the appraisal of yesterday's values means that new film, books, and other media reflect today's values. Nothing ground breaking, but then I'm not sure where we were going with this Disney thing at all. If you want an example where sexualized women aren't the subject, as perhaps it's easier to tackle, how about the crows in Dumbo?

[matt0]

No, what I thought people writing these films will do, rather then what the correct method would be (writing more scenes and dialogue for women). But like I said, the complaint is not valid enough to me because of the reasons I mentioned such as side characters not impacting the female cast in the first place. It's a moot point at best.

Edit: There is little gain in fiction speech equality. The story is what matters. All the characters could be frogs, you'd be happy with the amount of dialogue each frog gets at that point, correct?

Funny, because that isn't how you framed your original post.

Also, you seem to be dancing round the fact that they could just write more dialogue for the main female characters.

Which shouldn't be too hard in children's movies about princesses.

[Alex W.]

I would make a joke about how we might once again find ourselves embracing values like serfdom or the divine right of Kings but then I remembered that the Dark Enlightenment was a thing and that anti-Sarkeesian guy was into it.

[Alex W.]

There is little gain in fiction speech equality. The story is what matters.

NEG, dialogue and story aren't separate things. If you have a story with a strong female lead but she's the only woman in that entire world who seems to get to talk you're sending out mixed thematic messages.

[Sprite Machine]

Edit: There is little gain in fiction speech equality. The story is what matters. All the characters could be frogs, you'd be happy with the amount of dialogue each frog gets at that point, correct?

Frogs aren't a gender. There aren't legions of under-represented amphibians in movie theatres, lacking in relatable role models.

[Alex W.]

Frogs aren't a gender. There aren't legions of under-represented amphibians in movie theatres, lacking in relatable role models.

Even if there were, the protagonist from The Princess and the Frog covers both bases. And has more dialogue as a frog than a human woman come to think of it.

[NEG]

Yesterday's values should be constantly appraised, and luckily we have records of them in film, books, and other media. Now, that's not to necessarily say I would edit an older story to foist it on modern values (thus altering it), but I'm not sure if you're alluding to that.

I hope the appraisal of yesterday's values means that new film, books, and other media reflect today's values. Nothing ground breaking, but then I'm not sure where we were going with this Disney thing at all. If you want an example where sexualized women aren't the subject, as perhaps it's easier to tackle, how about the crows in Dumbo?

Fiction reflects the society it comes from. Critique the society for social values you disagree with, not the fiction.

Funny, because that isn't how you framed your original post.

Also, you seem to be dancing round the fact that they could just write more dialogue for the main female characters.

Which shouldn't be too hard in children's movies about princesses.

They could, but to zero gain in my view. There's many equality things I agree with, this one feels pointless.

NEG, dialogue and story aren't separate things. If you have a story with a strong female lead but she's the only woman in that entire world who seems to get to talk you're sending out mixed thematic messages.

Only if I'm searching for mixed thematic messages, I'd argue. Also, wouldn't that be the plot to Adam & Eve: The Movie?

Frogs aren't a gender. There aren't legions of under-represented amphibians in movie theatres, lacking in relatable role models.

Are you sure? Have you asked each individual frog if they feel under-represented and if they feel they lack relatable role models?

[Alex W.]

Only if I'm searching for mixed thematic messages

Yes, if you ignore things you tend not to see them, that's usually how it works. It doesn't change the fact that works of fiction are designed objects with thematic goals and the characters, plot and dialogue act in service of those goals; failure is bad design.

[TehStu]

Fiction reflects the society it comes from. Critique the society for social values you disagree with, not the fiction.

That's exactly what's being done. Welcome to Tropes vs Women in Videogames.

[matt0]

They could, but to zero gain in my view. There's many equality things I agree with, this one feels pointless.

Just for clarity, you think writing more lines of dialogue for female characters in children's movies largely aimed at girls which suffer a problem with not giving the female characters a real voice is pointless.

At least you're honest, although in the unlikely event you're not actually trolling that probably says more than you think it does.

[Sprite Machine]

Fiction reflects the society it comes from. Critique the society for social values you disagree with, not the fiction.

What is fiction if not a part of society?

They could, but to zero gain in my view. There's many equality things I agree with, this one feels pointless.

You don't see any gain in having better written female characters in movies that young girls watch? I mean, what?

Are you sure? Have you asked each individual frog if they feel under-represented and if they feel they lack relatable role models?

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