Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Qazimod]

Meanwhile at Koei Tecmo

(NSFW warning: it's a new DoAX trailer)

[NecroMorrius]

On the subject of what's intentional or not, I always think a lot of the ground covered by the tropes series isn't so much intentional on the part of the developers, more just a case of "this is just how things are done". It's a more passive, less actively confrontational version of the kind of conservatism that sees GG type folk scream, "that's not a real game, this is a game!"

I've always thought this too. It's not about active concious choices being made, it's about the insidious cumulation and normalisation of these things. It's not that these tropes are super-crazy-ultra offensive, but rather the fact that we consider them normal, or don't consider them at all.

I had the same reaction as usual to the latest video. "Oh boy, she's really reaching this time, sounds really silly, she's finally gone off the deep end" and then realising she's right, despite a few reaching examples or inconsistencies in her argument.

I do think things are on the up though. New Lara is generally excellent, and there's a glut of decent female character popping out of the woodwork which don't suffer most of her tropes. Evie Frye, Faith of Mirror's Edge Catalyst, that lady from horizon, Emily Kaldwin going from damsel in distress to deadly assassin etc. Not to say these examples defy her argument, more that it (and the surrounding conversation) is having an effect.

[Alex W.]

Meanwhile at Koei Tecmo

(NSFW warning: it's a new DoAX trailer)

Begun, the underboob wars have.

[TehStu]

It's all very serious, Simmy. Choose your next words carefully or a barrage of negs will rain down upon you.

I've never been negged in this thread, and haven't considered my words carefully.

As a mostly follower, rather than contributor, to this thread, NEG's contributions have been painful. Having finally understood the basic premise, requiring absurd amounts of patience for the people responding to him, he farts out ridiculous comments which are either incredibly ill-thought quips, or actually demonstrate that, no, he still doesn't understand this topic.

I suspect he would be better served creating a "Butts in Videogames Appreciation" thread. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it would save this thread from quite a bit of tedium.

[b00dles]

I'm not sure what Simmy was wary of, it seemed like he thought the whole discussion was pointless? Or was it the fact that we were attempting to engage with NEG?

[Broker]

I'm just not sure why you expect her arguments to be couched in equivocation while you contentedly use the specific.

"Posts that have absolutely no chance of being understood by the recipient"

[ZOK]

Meanwhile at Koei Tecmo

(NSFW warning: it's a new DoAX trailer)

Sweet tune though.

[NEG]

I haven't said much different from others on the Butts video in this Thread, Stu.

If anything, I shouldn't be the one indulging responses as much to those who have to seemingly be explained every line I type. It starting from:

- Not a great video this time around = Most agree. Most also agree that there are very similar tropes that could have been better represented other than Butts alone.

- Suggesting more personal touches related to gaming might have helped this episode = Compared to wanting KFC from our local bank.

- debating my personal thought of if Anita is having fun with gaming and wishing/hoping she did = somehow causes annoyance, I don't understand anything again, apparently. Cue much explaining from my end.

- Leading to Anita's choice of words seeming off to me = Apparently, there is not, in fact, always room for improvement. The main thing my comment was trying to suggest.

- Leading to being taught how to type critiQue = The off topic post of which gets 20 posses, whilst my suggested humorous way of finally learning and responding to it leads to negs anyway.

- Leading to being told to fuck off = Before Ersats politely reminded me I might have been inserting one too many gags into the topic for one day. Thanks, and fair enough.

I'm not guilt-free of course, but I don't think I have anything to feel bad about. Not this time.

Enjoy my latest fart, as Stu seems to suggest.

[TehStu]

I haven't said much different from others on the Butts video in this Thread, Stu.

If anything, I shouldn't be the one indulging responses as much to those who have to seemingly be explained every line I type. It starting from:

- Not a great video this time around = Most agree. Most also agree that there are very similar tropes that could have been better represented other than Butts alone.

- Suggesting more personal touches related to gaming might have helped this episode = Compared to wanting KFC from our local bank.

- debating my personal thought of if Anita is having fun with gaming and wishing/hoping she did = somehow causes annoyance, I don't understand anything again, apparently. Cue much explaining from my end.

- Leading to Anita's choice of words seeming off to me = Apparently, there is not, in fact, always room for improvement. The main thing my comment was trying to suggest.

- Leading to being taught how to type critiQue = The off topic post of which gets 20 posses, whilst my suggested humorous way of finally learning and responding to it leads to negs anyway.

- Leading to being told to fuck off = Before Ersats politely reminded me I might have been inserting one too many gags into the topic for one day. Thanks, and fair enough.

I'm not guilt-free of course, but I don't think I have anything to feel bad about. Not this time.

Enjoy my latest fart, as Stu seems to suggest.

If these were gags:

To butt or not to butt, that is the question.

Why don't your characters have butts?

they were poorly conceived, for this thread. Know thy audience.

These weren't the only ones, but it's not worth anyone's time to go back and create a quote-a-thon. You know, I rolled a night elf in WoW and partook in all that usually entailed. I concede everything that was wrong with it, and also acknowledge that, of all the threads on this forum, this wouldn't be on the one to crack wise arse jokes about it.

[Broker]

Well it's finally happened. I've put someone on ignore on rllmuk.

Well done NEG! Enjoy the rest of your stupid life.

It won't work, the thread is just a mess of people wasting their time replying to him now anyway. Time to abandon ship.

[Uncle Mike]

I do not understand what you guys think you're going to achieve talking to NEG in any topic, let alone this one. Ignore and move on. Jesus.

[NEG]

If these were gags:

they were poorly conceived, for this thread. Know thy audience.

These weren't the only ones, but it's not worth anyone's time to go back and create a quote-a-thon. You know, I rolled a night elf in WoW and partook in all that usually entailed. I concede everything that was wrong with it, and also acknowledge that, of all the threads on this forum, this wouldn't be on the one to crack wise arse jokes about it.

I don't think it was the butt gags that people were annoyed with/that caused disgruntlement though. A few others indulged in butt jokes of their own. I'd say it's harmless.

This thread also has many gags all the time, Butts are doing no different, it's within the video subject matter. Is one form of humor okay and not the other? eg: Alex's underboob Yoda.

Otherwise yes, not every thread needs Sonic in it's life. (At least, not yet) I'm fully aware of that.

Also, I read that as wide arse at first. Hehe

[TehStu]

It's a cumulative effect, mate.

[Gambit]

Meanwhile at Koei Tecmo

(NSFW warning: it's a new DoAX trailer)

The Neogaf thread is rather sad and tragic. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1173113

There are people who have actually masturbated over this aren't there?

[Alex W.]

No, they put it on in the background at their Gentlemen's Club to provide an atmosphere of sensuality while they sip Maker's Mark and smoke cigars.

[NEG]

The Neogaf thread is rather sad and tragic. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1173113

There are people who have actually masturbated over this aren't there?

Originally Posted by Lace

I know this is a silly question but there will be beach volleyball in this game right?

[robdood]

Fuck me that DOA trailer is all kinds of tragic.

[Straps]

I sort of don't think it's as bad as a lot of other games because it's not even pretending to not go after the teenage wanker demographic. Still tragic though.

[Dig Dug]

The idea of DOA3 (a sort pron game) in of itself isn't a problem but when the game is being made as part of a well known IP by a high ranking studio on a big budget it puts the medium in a pretty bad light.

[TehStu]

And the women looking so young. The first one didn't seem that way.

[Simmy]

The idea of DOA3 (a sort pron game) in of itself isn't a problem but when the game is being made as part of a well known IP by a high ranking studio on a big budget it puts the medium in a pretty bad light.

No it doesn't, in the same way Girls With Low Self Esteem doesn't put the medium of film in a bad light.

[Wiper]

Well, it would be pretty bad if it were a genuinely big budget, famous, widely marketed game, but it really isn't. It's an obscure (particularly outside of Japan) spin off of a dying series made by a mid-tier developer, its existence no more damming of the games industry than Porkys is of the film industry.

As with Geekette, I don't find it disappointing in the same way as casual (or not so casual) sexualisation in games that aren't overtly about ogling virtual women.

[Spacehost]

The whole DOAX "censorship" fiasco was just a smokescreen for the fact the series is selling, what, an eighth what it did ten years ago? People generally aren't into beach volleyball games full of scantily clad children any more.

Call it progress.

[Unofficial Who]

From what I could see the whole blow up about DOAX seemed to start from some vague tweets from the company and then turned into a thing with gaters declaring the banning as the fault of SJWs and then some retail outlets like PlayAsia jumping on board for commercial advantage.

Seemed very much the definition of "what if there was a war and no one turned up" as the SJW ciommunity just kind of shrugged.

It's a small niche game with some really icky exploitation, but even with the drumming up of the controversy will likely fail to make an impact.

Short term Play Asia and other stores has probably lost a few customers (maybe more than they realise as some like myself just quietly cancelled their accounts rather than take them to task publicly.) But they'll have gained more customers who will lap up those sorts of games and associated statuettes.

[Dig Dug]

No it doesn't, in the same way Girls With Low Self Esteem doesn't put the medium of film in a bad light.

I can't say I fully agree, Video Games are still a medium that come under scrutiny when a game like this does get made. I know a lot of people who if I were to show them DOAX they'd ask why I keep trying to defend the medium. It shouldn't have to be that way, every medium has this kind of stuff made but games get viewed differently when it comes to this kind of content. DOAX3 isn't getting a western release, but had it done so it would have been on the shelves of high street shops like GAME, which wouldn't do anything to change the stigma around games.

It's like with Street Fighter V, how hypocritical is it of Capcom to say they are designing the game to be more appealing to a wider audience only to turn around and give all but one of the female characters large busts/butts and revealing costumes/alt costumes.

Maybe I'm just getting worked up about it because I'm frustrated with how inclusive fighting game franchises feel, I once played guilty gear at the games society at uni and I remember there being a girl waiting for D&D society to start being disgusted when she saw I-no and going on a rant about how she hates video games always being like that.

[Fry Crayola]

If I showed people a magazine or film full of scantily clad, barely legal teens, I'd be considered a bit weird too.

On fighting games I think you're spot on, but I can see the points others made about DOAX. It's a voyeur sim, it's pretty up front about it (hur hur). The way I see it is that I feel more embarrassed when a film needlessly includes a bit of titillation than I do if I look at porn.

[PaB]

It's a small niche game with some really icky exploitation, but even with the drumming up of the controversy will likely fail to make an impact.

Sorry, who get's exploited?

[Alex W.]

Sorry, who get's exploited?

The viewer, that's generally the rule. To give a high-minded example Eden Lake was exploitation cinema using the fear of a feral working class stoked by the press, or to give a low-minded example this is exploitation gaming using the fetishisation of these game characters that Tecmo have carefully cultivated for the past decade and a half.

For some reason I'm now picturing J. Jonah Jameson chewing a cigar and pounding his desk and saying that social justice doesn't sell newspapers, boobs sell newspapers.

[Dig Dug]

If I showed people a magazine or film full of scantily clad, barely legal teens, I'd be considered a bit weird too.

On fighting games I think you're spot on, but I can see the points others made about DOAX. It's a voyeur sim, it's pretty up front about it (hur hur). The way I see it is that I feel more embarrassed when a film needlessly includes a bit of titillation than I do if I look at porn.

There isn't anything wrong with DOAX3 existing, it has a purpose even if it isn't the most noble of purposes. Games have in a sense always been chasing the idea of a virtual reality and I suppose DOAX falls under the category of a virtual reality game (especially if they ever give it actual VR support), the idea in itself (beach holiday with beautiful women) is a very aspirational one. It's in the unfortunate position of being part of a medium that is often judged by the existence of games containing such content. This very thread existing is proof that this kind of thing is stigmatized in the medium. It's so common to have seen titillating content in games that when a game appears that is straight up that it becomes hard to not want to look down on it. It isn't like aspects of DOAX and other such games have found their way into other games either, as much as I liked Pandora's Tower on wii you could tell the whole romance element (giving your girlfriend gifts so she'd like you more, which in turn gives you a better ending) was heavily borrowed from dating sims and the like.

Games also come off an a medium that is more corporately motivated than artistically motivated which I think is a barrier that prevents people from being more accepting of it, it would be hard to make an argument for most games being passion projects they do exist, you could even the argument that the original DOAX was such a game (Tomonobu Itagaki pretty much decided what Team Ninja would make) but you wouldn't for its three follow ups..

But enough with beating around the bush, if I had to give the core reason why stuff like DOAX is seen as an issue it is because the female characters are entirely constructed playthings. I've seen people accuse feminists of double standards saying that "women can dress how they like but these costumes in video games are problematic" is somehow a contradiction. What these people completely fail to understand is that one is a living being capable of making individual decisions while the other is a polygon made by a man that is completely incapable of individual thought or action and has to be told what to do and exists to be played with by the consumer.

That is why the game in of itself is considered problematic. But it's hard to draw the line on this, I already said I think games like this should be allowed to exist, sex has always played a big part in media, many of the early print works outside of religious texts were erotica after all (incidentally there were a lot of erotic games when games were new as well).

I'm probably just looking at this from a position of frustration because I know this medium has worth, a hell of a lot of worth but convincing other people it has worth is a uphill struggle.

[Rowan Morrison]

For some reason I'm now picturing J. Jonah Jameson chewing a cigar and pounding his desk and saying that social justice doesn't sell newspapers, boobs sell newspapers.

These are worthless! Get me crotch shots! Crotch shots of Spider-Man!