Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Protocol Penguin]

Have people not figured out that NEG is trolling yet?

How longs it been? 2 months?

Have people not figured out that NEG is trolling yet?

How longs it been? 2 months?

Bit of a while longer than that, seeing as NEG created his account in May 2003.

[macosx]

Sadly, I don't think he is .

[NEG]

I wasn't the one that said weak sauce, that would just cramp up my style.

[Fry Crayola]

He seems to be coming from a rather unfounded premise there: that she believes there's a bad "butt guy" who's responsible for this and that Anita personally despises him. Given her videos' repeated emphasis on systematics and unconscious biases that's a bizarre stance to argue from.

Indeed. I imagine that in many cases the butt-gaze is an accidental product of sexualised design and third person camera angle aimed at providing the best gameplay view. End result being that you've accidentally focused on a pert behind.

In such cases, the sexualised design of the character is an intentional aspect that's criticised, the accidental focus is a secondary effect being highlighted. If I was a developer in such a case*, I wouldn't go on the defensive on the second point - I'd take it on board as I would comments about an unexpectedly large difficulty spike, or a crash bug on level three. I'm sure those weren't intentional either, but effects don't care much for intent.

* alas, none of the characters in Rasternauts have butts, sexy or otherwise.

[NEG]

Why don't your characters have butts?

[SMD]

Just fuck off

[Ersatz Nihilist]

Why don't your characters have butts?

You asked a pages and pages ago for people to tell you if you were stinking up the thread with poor posts and humour so that you could stop. I am now telling you that you're doing this.

[The Bag]

Finally got around to watching the latest, some quick thoughts, not the best FF video imo - I think she's targeting the wrong thing in focussing on the game camera framing.

Outside of cutscene the third person camera is framed to give the best gameplay experience, not the best look at someone's arse. It's a mix between how much of the PC you need to show and how much of the environment, and it differs from game to game. For example Gears can be close in on the PC since the primary interaction is shooting and simple interaction with the environment, the NPCs are armed with guns so you want to obscure as little of the play space as possible so the player can easily see targets. Assassin's Creed or Batman have more complicated interaction with the world and are primarily mellee based so seeing more of the player character makes sense. How the camera works is tweak and tweaked again, even a simple string & cage camera can take a lot of tweaking to work just right for your game. So comparing different game cameras is missing the point slightly, you'd need to look at it in the same game - Batman for instance. Iirc Batman & Catwoman are framed pretty much the same for their standard walk cycles. And what was going on with try to view Batman's backside, I'm pretty certain you can circle the camera without the batman turning like in the video, you probably just need to get creative and hang him off a ledge and then move the camera.

Cameras hiding the butt - the stop rotating around the character and rotated in place once they get to about waist height, that'll be for viewing the environment without obscuring it with the character (it was PoP or Watchdogs in the video). I wouldn't be surprised if the new Tomb Raider games do it too.

The emphasis, imo, should have been on the character's outfits and the cinematic cameras. Outfits were mentioned, but they're more of the issue than the game camera to me. Cinematic cameras are another issue, the slow pan down the back of the female character, the leery framing used in others. I love Mass Effect 2 but did we have to see Miranda's arse in every conversation. It's stuff like that which needs to change, and more appropriate clothing choices (along with not every female character walking like they're on a cat walk) would 'fix' the game camera.

[Capwn]

Great links Yeah, clearly it was someone just repeating a trend that is clearly a trope as we can see from those examples . Of course men have their own tropes in posters/box art too but they usually are tropes that put them in a more positive/powerful position.

[Unofficial Who]

It's interesting seeing American McGee's point of view on this as the creator of Alice. Some of his response saddens me in a "never meet your heros" sort of way but he's entitled to his point of view nad more than entitled to talk about the art he's created in the form of Alice:Madness Returns.

I find it fascinating though that somehow because Anita lauds the design of Alice she's somehow the real sexist. I think he's selling himself and his team short. It can't just have been luck, there were some really careful design decisions that went into Madness Returns (and you can see that in some of the rejected concept art. And I seem to remember a story about EA pushing American to make the game sexier and edgier and his response was to create some really bizarre art involving a penis snail.)

Compare the feel of Alice:Madness Returns to Sucker Punch and you can see the differences. Alice could have easily become just another addition to the exploitation genre. Instead it's been a comfort to a couple of my friends who've found it really empowering.

[Simmy]

What is actually going on in this thread? Is there a joke I'm missing out on? A meme or something?

None of this can be serious.

[robdood]

What, the actual topic or NEG's amazing contribution?

[Zael]

Shrew, what are you adding anymore? Have you simply given up any pretence of a debate to just hang off this thread like a leech, making sniping comments that add absolutely nothing? Because if so, kindly fuck off. Thanks .

[Simmy]

This thread is serious, then

I'll leave you all to it.

[Zael]

When you first started you approached the situation with what seemed to be a genuine willingness to debate the topic, which I respected because that's not an easy thing to do in this thread.

But over the weeks you've had a lot of pushback and it's deteriorated to such a degree that you're reduced to making sneery one liners that add absolutely nothing. Any hint of sincerity you once had about the topic is gone.

[Sprite Machine]

Outside of cutscene the third person camera is framed to give the best gameplay experience, not the best look at someone's arse. It's a mix between how much of the PC you need to show and how much of the environment, and it differs from game to game. For example Gears can be close in on the PC since the primary interaction is shooting and simple interaction with the environment, the NPCs are armed with guns so you want to obscure as little of the play space as possible so the player can easily see targets. Assassin's Creed or Batman have more complicated interaction with the world and are primarily mellee based so seeing more of the player character makes sense. How the camera works is tweak and tweaked again, even a simple string & cage camera can take a lot of tweaking to work just right for your game. So comparing different game cameras is missing the point slightly, you'd need to look at it in the same game - Batman for instance. Iirc Batman & Catwoman are framed pretty much the same for their standard walk cycles.

Nevertheless, if there are indeed trends arising, then it's worth pointing them out and trying to explain them. I don't think comparing different characters in the same game would give many useful answers, because it would only implicate intentional differences in how each gender is framed, and what I suspect is happening is the differences are unintentional or habitual (for want of better term).

[matt0]

On the subject of what's intentional or not, I always think a lot of the ground covered by the tropes series isn't so much intentional on the part of the developers, more just a case of "this is just how things are done". It's a more passive, less actively confrontational version of the kind of conservatism that sees GG type folk scream, "that's not a real game, this is a game!"

[Fry Crayola]

Yep, it's mostly an unthinking repetition of what's common. Repetition leading to normalisation, both by players and developers, leading to a skewed viewpoint, which is the common thread in the series. There is rarely an attribution of genuine malice.

[The Bag]

I accept all of that, and of course camera position is affected by game play style, but isn't the point being made that these choices seem to somehow differ according to the protagonist's gender? So whether the character being viewed mid screen from behind makes it more likely devs will make a female character, or whether a female character makes it more likely she'll be viewed full screen from behind doesn't really matter here - or maybe the choice is even to do with a confounding factor like female characters doing less hand to hand combat that requires a particular camera position. What matters is the overall pattern of the bum being more visible on screen for female characters (whilst male character bums are more often off screen), the costume being tighter or skimpier on female characters (whilst male costumes are more likely to obscure the bum from view), and (although she didn't mention this part as much) the movement drawing attention to the bum more on female characters (whilst males are not animated that way). I'd agree it also ties into the cut scenes, framing and the pans, which often exaggerate that 'male gaze effect' she is noticing. But it doesn't stop there being a valid point in this video.

Even with the box art for Beyond Good and Evil, you could argue that the case is tenuous, or you could say that the fact it doesn't reflect the game suggests one artist was lazy with their version and drew on a very common trope for poster and box art in which female characters are positioned to show both bum and side boob. Nearly as gendered as between the legs (I don't see any men's legs there at all).

There are a lot of articles about the broke back pose and gendered poses in comic art that are worth a read, and many WTF images of women. I mean it has got to the point that we don't think twice about this kind of pose/figure until you cover the top or bottom half in turn, or try to work out what she'd look like from another angle.

Yes, her argument is the game camera differs based on gender, my argument as a developer is I don't think it does - but hey, I can't speak for all devs. First Tomb Raider, it's a very basic third person camera, to me that isn't about putting Lara's backside in the middle of the screen but seeing as much of the environment and the character's place in it to balance out the somewhat awkward controls and platforming.

The game camera's framing is all I take issue with - character outfit & animation, cinematic camera (that's anytime it's not in your control, not just cutscenes), box art, etc there's definitely an issue there with focus on butts. Change the outfit & the animation and suddenly the game camera isn't an issue anymore. Tomb Raider 1 could have the same camera but a different outfit and have avoided inclusion on the list.

(Reason I was suggesting comparing Batman & Catwoman is this one was framing sounded much more deliberate rather than unconscious when I was watching last night)

[Unofficial Who]

Didn't that guy who ran Core at the time actually say that they changed their tomb raider to be a woman because he'd rather be looking at a lady's bum that a bloke's? i seem to remember it from an old Edge interview or something.

There was a lot of talk back in the day that "if you're going to look a someone's bum for hours may as well make it attractive!"

Which covered up the original reason for Lara Croft, they had to change the player avatar to a woman because the original build had an Indiana Jones style character that would have seen them sued out of existance.

[b00dles]

There was a lot of talk back in the day that "if you're going to look a someone's bum for hours may as well make it attractive!"

Which covered up the original reason for Lara Croft, they had to change the player avatar to a woman because the original build had an Indiana Jones style character that would have seen them sued out of existance.

Like Nathan Drake?

[Alex W.]

I find it fascinating though that somehow because Anita lauds the design of Alice she's somehow the real sexist. I think he's selling himself and his team short. It can't just have been luck, there were some really careful design decisions that went into Madness Returns (and you can see that in some of the rejected concept art. And I seem to remember a story about EA pushing American to make the game sexier and edgier and his response was to create some really bizarre art involving a penis snail.)

I hate to say it, but what he posted seems to be an irrational effort to distance himself from even the remotest suggestion of having something in common with the Tropes videos. Which reminded me of this:

The conceit of the religious right was always that exposure, any exposure, to certain information was a gateway drug into a godless, doomed existence.

Compare the way that people like McGee swoop down with their multi-paragraph rambles within minutes of the videos going up, and the way that people in this thread have internalised the overall argument and actually come up with some serious issues with it. Are the Gamergatey lot failing to comprehend these videos because they're afraid to seriously internalise the thesis? Is the contagion heuristic in full swing in the way they deal with "unfriendly" ideas?

[Alex W.]

Isn't there some validity to this though? It's not an unreasonable case to make. If the game narrative is shallow and doesn't feature a character of particular depth, and tonally their outfit suits the game environment then it makes sense to make the player avatar an attractive one. Tomb Raider* would've been less appealing, and sold less, had the lead protagonist looked like Susan Boyle in a smock. The same applies to games as it does to Hollywood.

*I chose to cover Lara up with a gillet and suitable climbing gear, because her default outfit was stupid under the circumstances.

You're conflating attractiveness and sexualisation. Not every attractive woman in the world is Pamela Anderson in hotpants and a tight top.

Nathan Drake is a good example, actually. He's an attractive character, for sure, and by no means Joe Average off the street, but he's not some Playgirl reject in nothing but tight shorts and a pair of boots.

[Sprite Machine]

Tomb Raider would've been less appealing, and sold less, had the lead protagonist looked like Susan Boyle in a smock.

Less appealing to straight male players, potentially more appealing to women starved of role models.

Not that every creative decision should be based on presumed sales potential anyway...

[b00dles]

The thing is as well that it's 'less appealing' purely on a very base level. I know there were technical limitations and so on but I never played or bought the game because of the physically appealing nature of the character, it was meant to be a good game. That's not to say of course that it didn't possibly influence the purchases of some people.

Also, the character could have been made appealing in ways other than lust, even if it was Susan Boyle in a smock, it could still have been appealing to get her to raid tombs and do whatever it was that she was doing through her character and motives etc

[K]

Isn't there some validity to this though? It's not an unreasonable case to make. If the game narrative is shallow and doesn't feature a character of particular depth, and tonally their outfit suits the game environment then it makes sense to make the player avatar an attractive one. Tomb Raider* would've been less appealing, and sold less, had the lead protagonist looked like Susan Boyle in a smock. The same applies to games as it does to Hollywood.

*I chose to cover Lara up with a gillet and suitable climbing gear, because her default outfit was stupid under the circumstances.

I dunno, is it a big problem? I don't remember playing through other third person games like Alan Wake, Gears of War, Vanquish, GTAV, etc and thinking the game suffered for my having to stare at a disgusting man's arse for twenty hours or so. I don't think I even gave Alan Wake's arse a second thought, if for no other reason than you don't look at someone's arse while you're playing the game, you look where you're going. If you played Tomb Raider staring at Lara Croft's arse, I'd be amazed if you could even complete the first level.

[Unofficial Who]

Isn't there some validity to this though? It's not an unreasonable case to make. If the game narrative is shallow and doesn't feature a character of particular depth, and tonally their outfit suits the game environment then it makes sense to make the player avatar an attractive one. Tomb Raider* would've been less appealing, and sold less, had the lead protagonist looked like Susan Boyle in a smock. The same applies to games as it does to Hollywood.

*I chose to cover Lara up with a gillet and suitable climbing gear, because her default outfit was stupid under the circumstances.

I wish I still had it (and I'll try to dig out a copy of it) but I remember some images from Toby Gard's portfolio in an issue of CU Amiga. One of the shots looked pretty similar to one of the loading screens in the first Tomb Raider. I suspect Toby went through his portfolio when he was told the character design had to be changed and that the original design was more about finding a replacement quickly rather than making something sexy.

Also back then given the low resolution it would make sense for the character to be thin rather than "Susan Boyle" like if only for the practical reason of the avatar not blocking the screen. In the past 20 years I think developers have come up with other camera solutions so you can have beefy characters now without making it hard to see.

Lara's clothes have already been covered earlier on I'm guessing, It's something that's improving now after a period where Core definately sexualised Lara Croft after the first game.

[b00dles]

I also think that the original Tomb Raider was very much during a time when gaming really was a bit of a 'boys club' and almost everything was geared towards that teen male market even more blatantly than it might be now (thankfully a certain amount of maturity has kicked in since) and I think the fact Tomb Raider ended up appealing to women and being a positive role model was more of a lucky fluke due to the lack of any other options rather than it being remotely intentional.

I may be completely wrong but I'd be surprised if there were many women directly involved at Core in the creation of Tomb Raider and Lara.

EDIT: That's not to say it's an excuse but very much a product of it's time and I do think that's one of the 'normalised' arguments that FF does make well because the fact that it still happens is the shame, rather than it did, if that makes sense.

[Unofficial Who]

Ah....found the post I made many years ago.

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?/topic/248487-the-tomb-raider-games/?p=8032467

[b00dles]

His original pic has actually got a far more realistically proportioned waist in fairness to him.