Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[NEG]

That wouldn't be an improvement, though. It'd gut the comprehensibility of what you describe as an analytical, intelligent series in order to accommodate a completely hypothetical audience of credulous idiots; the last time I checked credulous idiots were more dedicated to picketing her Twitter feed than watching her videos.

Yes, it wouldn't help people that don't watch.

People doing serious critical videos should be continually having fun throughout the video? Do reviews of theater/ art/ cinema/ books/ anything ever have to be all 'wow this was fun'? In fact no, that's not even the question, they aren't but why do you think these videos should? Why do you even think she isn't even having fun? You're projecting so much on to these videos that isn't even there.

I don't think you even know what you're railing against anymore. You may as well go find some windmills to tilt at.

I felt she wasn't having fun in this episode because both the subject matter and it's examples felt boring and forced to a degree, and less important in general compared to previous topics. Unless someone is coming new to the series, we're all aware of old Lara Croft's design, why did Anita feel she had to point out polygonal ancient butts (by today's standards) to prove her point. Yes she goes into more recent stuff but then jumps straight back to 10+ years ago over and over.

Interesting tidbits didn't really show up (perhaps that there are more men in capes and long coats than I realized), how butts were negatively impacting didn't really come across well enough in terms of a Trope. There wasn't any real shocks which I as a fan now expect from these. Maybe we're just out of bigger shock value material, and the most important issues already covered.

Like I also said, tight wear or way women are dressed is probably better Tropes to use compared to butts alone, also. All of this adds up to a feeling of 'not having fun' to me. Or maybe rushed? I don't know. My suggestion to add a element of 'and here's what I've been up to' was just as much a suggestion to soften the blow on a more boring episode, as in something I thought that would help, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm a great director. Hire me.

[MDY]

The gaming right is the new religious right

Fave response.. (following the usual few 'it's not us, it's them!' comments..)

"Guys, seriously. We're not about eating people. That was that other great white shark.. And I reported him.

We're opposed to attacking boats and humans.

You just bit yourself in half for sympathy. Where's the pictures or video or chat logs of me eating you?

I have yet to see any proof of these attacks your talking about. If you don't have any proof, then you're just fearmongering and ignorant about my community, SJW facist!"

- Jaws

[The Bag]

why did Anita feel she had to point out polygonal ancient butts (by today's standards) to prove her point. Yes she goes into more recent stuff but then jumps straight back to 10+ years ago over and over.

I haven't got around to watching this one yet, but looking at the prevalence of the trope being discussed over time is something that's happened in many of these videos.

[Sprite Machine]

We already confirmed a month ago that the show is already arguably idiot proof, in terms of being able to understand what is being said. Sometimes frustratingly so 'morons' understand.

Nothing is idiot-proof to a sufficiently talented idiot.

[Unofficial Who]

Getting back on topic I found this one to be kind of weak, although that might be down to me not understanding the attractiveness of behinds, male or female.

I think her example of the difference between the characters in Uncharted was on point but the whole Batman/Catwoman thing was just weird.

It might just be me but I think a lot of the bad examples shown were from old or bad games where the character is centered in the screen where a lot of the 'good' examples were from newer games where the camera is a bit closer and to the right of the character (with the character being on the left of the screen. Something that Law of the West back on the C64 got right 30 years ago trivia fans!)

So as proof that Anita's videos aren't above reproach, I think this one is a bit of a rare misstep as I think some of the issues with male butt coverings can be put down to technology and/or fashion (The Matrix has a lot to answer for with the long coats.)

In this case the called for improvements seem to have been made, with the exception of some of the weird butt cape costumes for human male inquisitiors in the latest Dragon Age. (My girlfriend thinks some of them look like he's shoved a tea towel down the back of his pants and the clippiing on those costumes are awful.) The new Tomb Raider games don't seem to be suffering from the issues highlighted in this episode and box covers and magazine ads....do they even count anymore in this new digital environment? Historically they've been awful making exploitation film posters look like high art but now surely it's all about the gif they use.

[Unofficial Who]

Oh, American McGee has some words to say as well.

https://www.facebook.com/americanmcgee/posts/10153422645582075

Just imagine for a minute that butt position IS mentioned during design meetings - how high of a priority does it get in relation to all the other considerations going into the design and tuning of a game? Aren't there people in those meetings who are into necks? Thighs? Ankles? Does she really think there's a room full of people who sit around debating these things?

This is one area where I think Anita badly missteps in her critiques. She ignores the fact development teams are made up of multi-cultural, multi-discipline, interlocking departments of male and female developers - all of whom are only in their position because of incredible hard work, diligence, and intelligence. These teams have been tasked with managing a development process that can span 24+ months, costs 10's of millions of dollars, and employs hundreds of people. There's internal competition between departments around use of resources and the emphasis placed on particular disciplines.

To suggest that one person (presumably a sexist, man-pig) can walk into this kind of environment and say, "make her butt the center of attention!" reveals Anita's lack of understanding about how games are made and the people who make them.

We also get more of the usual refusal to recognize *character* as a function of the design decisions made around clothing and framing. My Alice is once again shown as an example of "appropriate" representation. ‪#‎notyourshield‬, Anita.

While it's certainly true Alice appears to conform to Anita's ideals, she's ignoring the fact Alice's adventure is taking place within a nightmare where her enemy absolutely objectifies her and seeks to convert her into a literal sex doll. She also ignores the character of The Carpenter, who is shirtless and sports prominent man nipples. Work appropriate attire?

More at the link.

[RubberJohnny]

American Mcgee sounds like a bit of a nut.

[Alex W.]

He seems to be coming from a rather unfounded premise there: that she believes there's a bad "butt guy" who's responsible for this and that Anita personally despises him. Given her videos' repeated emphasis on systematics and unconscious biases that's a bizarre stance to argue from.

American Mcgee sounds like a bit of a nut.

His use of notyourshield reminded me of:

[Danster]

Didn't that guy who ran Core at the time actually say that they changed their tomb raider to be a woman because he'd rather be looking at a lady's bum that a bloke's? i seem to remember it from an old Edge interview or something.

[Alex W.]

Also:

she's ignoring the fact Alice's adventure is taking place within a nightmare where her enemy absolutely objectifies her and seeks to convert her into a literal sex doll.

What point is he trying to make here, exactly? Is it just "how can she claim to like our game, when it has objectification in it"?

That'd be completely failing to understand the issue with objectification.

Maybe he's trying to argue that they dropped the ball with the character design because she really should've been objectified?

IDGI

[NEG]

I haven't got around to watching this one yet, but looking at the prevalence of the trope being discussed over time is something that's happened in many of these videos.

Yeah, the past just didn't feel as needed this time around.

BUTTS

[Alex W.]

I once told Anita of an exec at EA who asked me, "What happens if we look up Alice's dress?" I thought the question was ridiculous and inappropriate, especially given the nature of Alice's story. This guy didn't understand my objection because he couldn't see beyond the surface. So, yeah, Anita, those kinds of people do exist in the game industry. in 23 years of development I met one (1). An unfortunate person who couldn't see beyond the surface of a game character's 3D model to the story inside. He wanted to spend time looking under Alice's dress, instead of inside her story. Kinda reminds me of you.

#feministsaretherealsexists

[b00dles]

As has been said, I'd have thought it's more the sexy sway, idle pose and animations than particularly the fact there's a bum on the screen but hey-ho.

I wonder what the GG-ers would do if a game's central character was an effeminate camp bloke that had a sway to his hips and a limp wrist while he was gunning down the bad guys or whatever.

Although PN03 is arguably a pinnacle of this 'thing', personally it wasn't something that gave me the horn and her bopping bottom helped keep the rhythm going that you needed. Although I generally agree that it is an unnecessary difference between a 'manly' strut of male characters and a more often than not exaggerated catwalk walk of a female protagonist.

On another note, Yakuza 5 (which does actually have a strange amount of anti GG type stuff and references to sexism, more than I seem to remember 4 having, definitely) when you play as Haruka, she does have a slightly disappointing (for want of a better term) flouncy walk but I think it's a lot more along the lines of "moe" than it is sexual titillation but it's arguably a fine line.

[Alex W.]

Although PN03 is arguably a pinnacle of this 'thing', personally it wasn't something that gave me the horn and her bopping bottom helped keep the rhythm going that you needed. Although I generally agree that it is an unnecessary difference between a 'manly' strut of male characters and a more often than not exaggerated catwalk walk of a female protagonist.

It bears emphasising that you do need to have some difference in walk cycle, and animations in general, to accommodate the different body shape; they rigged Femshep with Manshep's animations and the results often look a bit odd.

Anyone trying to argue that Catwoman's animations aren't designed to emphasise her backside is up a gum tree though. The idea that she walks like that because that's how cats walk is ridiculous.

[b00dles]

No I entirely understand that and generally women do walk differently from men, I don't think that it would be good if all the character models were the same or anything but I suppose the fact that the differences are brought out in sexiness for the women more than anything else.

Again, a sexy bum or character isn't obviously a bad thing in and of itself but when there is nothing else in the game to compare against, then it's more of an issue. At least batman had some slightly more generic female cops in the station rather than every one of them shimmying about like catwoman.

[Mr Cochese]

That cat walks exactly like John Wayne!

[macosx]

Leave Catwoman, BGAE and Lara alone, it's stuff like Bayonetta etc, that should be called out.

A sexy arse is a trope but it's not a bad one.

[Alex W.]

...although that said, the non-civilian female cast is dressed to arouse: Ivy still hasn't got any trousers, Talia Al Ghul's are painted on, and Harley's wearing her nurse outfit from the first game in different colours. I don't really have an issue with it when you're talking about Catwoman and Poison Ivy, because the they've always represented a sort of threat of female sexuality to the Dark Knight's stoic indifference, but that loses some of its impact when the personification of stockholm syndrome is wearing a more revealing outfit than the Caped Crusader's traditional femme fatale.

This background sexualisation really undermines people's design goals. It brings me back to a thought I had about Dragon's Crown, that most of the characters' designs make it easy to read their traits: the Amazon and Dwarf are obviously strong but slow, the Elf is frail but quick, and so on. Yet once they came to the Sorceress it's like they couldn't come up with a way of communicating magic-wielder and went with boobs.

[Mr Cochese]

Maybe she used magic to make her boobs look bigger. In-universe explanation right there.

[Dudley]

People doing serious critical videos should be continually having fun throughout the video?

I now want to see someone do a serious review of a french arthouse piece on torture in German interment camps during World War 2 while simultaneously playing a game of musical chairs.

[NEG]

I would watch and critic that.

[K]

It's "critique", for the love of god. If you insist on shitting up this thread with your fatuous ramblings, at least take the time to use the word correctly.

[NEG]

Hrm. Maybe if I thought of Next Generation's Q every time I reach criti. Criti-Que. Que-Who?

I think that'll work.

[Sprite Machine]

Leave Catwoman, BGAE and Lara alone, it's stuff like Bayonetta etc, that should be called out.

A sexy arse is a trope but it's not a bad one.

"This trope should't be mentioned in a video about tropes because... reasons."

[NEG]

To butt or not to butt, that is the question.

[Simmy]

Cringe. The whole thing is cringe. Everything.

[macosx]

"This trope should't be mentioned in a video about tropes because... reasons."

because it's not versus women. as in the title of the weak sauce video.

[Wiper]

Right everybody, it's time to pack up the forum, we're done: it finally happened, somebody actually used the phrase 'weak sauce' with sincerity.

[robdood]

Well it's finally happened. I've put someone on ignore on rllmuk.

Well done NEG! Enjoy the rest of your stupid life.

[Gambit]

Have people not figured out that NEG is trolling yet?

How longs it been? 2 months?