Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[TehStu]

I'll go see it 3 more times to do my part.

[Fry Crayola]

I get what you are saying, but look at the amazing advances in processing power, memory, batteries, satellite, the internet and social media over that time. We are in an era of Wikipedia, Tesla cars and solar farms. We can use GPS and biofeedback. We can have more people involved together than ever before. If we wanted great games, then that means creating new gaming genres; we could travel in different directions, not just wait for the tech to catch up to make them more like action films.

I'm looking back, rather than forward - gaming in the 80s was more like the silent era if we stick with the film analogy - plenty of classics but still as much hampered by what they can't do, as empowered by what they can. I don't think we're in the 70s of cinema yet. We're still 30s and 40s. We've had our Metropolis and The Gold Rush, perhaps, but it's going to get bigger and better as the constraints are falling away.

[Fry Crayola]

I think saying games have not had a "Citizen Kane" moment yet does the medium a disservice. Games like Minecraft have pushed the medium forward, and done far more to show the potential in the form than so many narratively driven experiences, and it is widely enjoyed by people of all ages, backgrounds and interests, and is as unique an auteur creation as that found in any other media.

And it manages it with spectacularly crap technology to boot.

I totally agree that we need to look beyond narrative and not get hung up on trying to be film. When I think of what "gaming's Citizen Kane" is, I don't think of some equivalent experience, I think of some game that excels high within this medium. Minecraft could certainly be one choice.

Anyway, I'm veering wildly off the thread topic here!

[earlymodernsteve]

Getting back onto Star Wars for a moment, I read a piece that pointed out the other reason why Rey is so groundbreaking.

http://www.scannain.com/opinion-piece/girls-explain-star-wars-to-you

That's an interesting read, but it does overlook the importance of the interrogation scene in Rey's burgeoning use of the Force. That was a more traditional torture brings hidden depths of power trope, a la Tomb Raider reboot (amongst countless others). It's ace though that something as close to my heart as Star Wars is becoming more open - my 8 year old daughter loved The Force Awakens (which avoided the problems of having to disown her).

[Rev]

I've said this before, but if movies at the time had been put under the same pressure as games are now to have a Citizen Kane moment then Citizen Kane wouldn't have been movies' Citizen Kane moment.

For the record, I think it was Deus Ex.

[Rev]

That's an interesting read, but it does overlook the importance of the interrogation scene in Rey's burgeoning use of the Force. That was a more traditional torture brings hidden depths of power trope, a la Tomb Raider reboot (amongst countless others). It's ace though that something as close to my heart as Star Wars is becoming more open - my 8 year old daughter loved The Force Awakens (which avoided the problems of having to disown her).

Stuff like that is a spoiler, so I've stuck it in tags. It'd probably be better for such stuff to be in the TFA thread.

[earlymodernsteve]

Stuff like that is a spoiler, so I've stuck it in tags. It'd probably be better for such stuff to be in the TFA thread.

No problem - was going off the fact that it was open in that one now.

[Anne Summers]

Actually I think maybe Dark Souls was gaming's Citizen Kane.

[Benny]

Nah, Citizen Kane was cinema's Dark Souls.

EDIT: but seriously though, the reason games like Dark Souls are so unique is becuase they eschew the traditional narrative structure that is so often employed to ape film, and then play to the strength of games having the luxury of being able to have explorative narrative information with personal discovery. You literally tell your own story with them and are free to delve as deeply as you wish into the background of the world, in the same way that you might study a painting and discover hidden depths to its texture. Games have the potential to encapsulate the strengths of nearly every other medium in any way that they see fit, which is both their blessing and curse.

The fact that some troglodites are up in arms that their precious limited gaming forms are under threat by people that are actually thinking thoughtfully about them for once is utterly tragic and can only hold back the limitless potential of the medium from crafting experiences that could be both familiar and also truly alien at the same time.

[Alex W.]

I thought the big deal with Citizen Kane wasn't that it was regarded as the best film evar (it was a critical and commercial nonentity on release), but that it established modern film-making techniques across the board from editing to special effects. So gaming's Citizen Kane would be something like System Shock 2 which laid out an approach to telling an FPS story that is used to this day, sold poorly and which Edge gave a 7/10.

[Danster]

She's one of the first to address the issue of sexism in games; and bring it into a mainstream arena. TBH, I hadn't even thought about it up to that point.

[Festoon]

Neither had I.

So she is one of the first to think thoughtfully about women and games.

[squirtle]

This thread moves fast, but isn't Half Life the template for modern FPSs, rather than Doom?

[Zael]

She's the reason I became aware of sexism in general. When FF first came out I was young enough to not really care about real world issues. It took someone talking about these problems on a medium I actually cared about to open my eyes to the bigger picture.

[Dudley]

I think saying games have not had a "Citizen Kane" moment yet does the medium a disservice. Games like Minecraft have pushed the medium forward, and done far more to show the potential in the form than so many narratively driven experiences, and it is widely enjoyed by people of all ages, backgrounds and interests, and is as unique an auteur creation as that found in any other media.

And it manages it with spectacularly crap technology to boot.

If we're going to make clumsy game/film comparisons, Minecraft seems to tie well to Star Wars to me, the universal appeal, kids enjoying it for what it is, adults getting entirely too obsessed with it (eg modding in Minecraft) and the sheer endless merchandising.

[Danster]

This thread moves fast, but isn't Half Life the template for modern FPSs, rather than Doom?

The way people are hyped about it's sequels I'd say it was our Star Wars....

[robdood]

Edited my post to remove the 'this stuff' comment, as Danster says, she was one of the first to address sexism and gender tropes in gaming. But to suggest this is the singular instance where gaming has been thoughtfully analysed is rubbish.

Where did anyone say it was the single instance of thoughtful gaming analysis? I must have missed it.

[RubberJohnny]

There have been plenty of game academics, they've just not really drawn the ire of GG because they're men. Ian Bogost for example, made the argument that "gamer" was a manufactured identity designed to sell you stuff a year before Leigh Alexander did, but only the latter got a load of abuse for it.

Similarly there were people who talked about the treatment of women in the industry - Penny Arcade had a "no booths babes" policy at their conventions a decade ago, but that never got the cries of "censorship" or massive pushback that Anitas videos have. Women just seem more threatening to the psyche of these idiots, and I don't think they realise they're reacting differently to the same stimuli.

And we can't mock "gamings Citizens Kane" without recognising the first use of that phrase was actually about Tony Hawks Pro Skater, thanks IGN

[matt0]

And we can't mock "gamings Citizens Kane" without recognising the first use of that phrase was actually about Tony Hawks Pro Skater, thanks IGN

That's a fair shout to be honest.

[Mr Cochese]

Oh right. I thought it didn't say that either, but if you punch yourself hard in the face until your vision goes bleary you can totally nearly see it.

[Broker]

Actually I think maybe Dark Souls was gaming's Citizen Kane.

Indeed

[robdood]

I quoted them and bolded the statement so you must have pretty selective eyesight.

Oh right, I think you took that a bit literally, then.

[Dudley]

people that are actually thinking thoughtfully about [gaming forms] for once

"For once" doesn't mean "For the first or only time ever".

[Broker]

Yeah, for once isn't a common phrase meaning that something is rare or uncommon, it's a literal assertion that this is the first time something has ever happened.

You're lucky that those other two idiots were here when you first posted Shrew. Without them to make you seem like a voice of reason you're starting to sound mental though.

[Jarik]

As I grew up I guess I just naturally expected representation of women in videogames to improve in the same way as it's improved in the rest of media & society in general. Not overnight, & yes, it has much further to go, but it's getting there.

I certainly wasn't expecting the massive backlash that the Tropes vs Women in Videogames series got. A backlash that drew my attention to them & GG & made me realise that the sexism problem in Videogames & the Videogame community was much greater than I'd thought.

[Mr Cochese]

Oh right, I think you took that a bit literally, then.

Apart from the bit where people is plural. What do kids even do all day in school these days?

[b00dles]

I find it embarrassing really.

the other sex of our entire race, somehow perceived to not be allowed to enjoy, work in or comment on an entire medium of entertainment because of their genitals.

Doesn't even make sense

[b00dles]

You've proved yourself wrong there though shrew.

[robdood]

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE THIS IS SO TEDIOUS.

[RubberJohnny]

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE SIR_SHREW IS SO TEDIOUS.

Fixed.