Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Unofficial Who]

Getting back onto Star Wars for a moment, I read a piece that pointed out the other reason why Rey is so groundbreaking.

http://www.scannain.com/opinion-piece/girls-explain-star-wars-to-you

The awakening of the Force within Rey does not come via some terrible punishment, or some personal trauma that she has to overcome. She is not Black Widowed here, where her true power is revealed to come from her most profound wounds. Rey is given a luxury that comes so easily to male heroes – she simply turns a corner, finds a magical item (Luke Skywalker’s Lightsaber, no less) and it awakens the Force in her. Just that. No searing infertility, no rape, no revelation of past abuse, no heartbreak, no sacrifice. No heroine who’s validity is defined by what she has sacrificed, in the way of Katniss handing up her life for her sister, becoming a martyr for a revolution. In the way of Ariel, handing over her power to speak in order to walk on land. No poison apple, no needle on a spinning wheel here. Rey is Bilbo and the One Ring. Bastian in the bookshop. Harry, opening a letter.

Also for trivia fans

Notably, this year, Vulture put together this video compilation of every word of dialogue spoken by a woman who wasn’t Leia in the original Star Wars Trilogy. The airtime totals at 63 seconds. You’d need four times that to get a decent slice of toast off the grill.

Things are changing for the better.

Someone else had a similar experience I had with Poe

essica Lachenal at The Mary Sue notes and cheers for Jess Pava, an Asian X-Wing pilot who appears briefly during the attack on Starkiller Base – ‘I was watching an example of the type of character I could be. And that was magic.’

[PaB]

They're talking about Doom 4 as Anita tweeted about it at E3. The one that hasn't come out yet and is about nineteen times more violent than Doom was.

Perhaps read the thread? It helps with things like knowing what people are talking about in the thread.

Fuck that, like I got time to read through the essays people have written in here. Hence my qualification that I hadn't read it up front.

As for Doom 4. Yes, its really violent. But to me it looked like a gimmick to brighten up what looked like a fairly dull FPS.

"You cannot judge something made 20 odd years ago by todays standard" - of course you can if you know what you're talking about and you frame the circumstances surrounding what you're discussing. Books, movies, games - they don't get hermetically sealed in a criticism proof vault after 15-20 years.

I don't think there is much value in critiquing a 20-30 year old work and judging it by todays standards unless it is to highlight how things have changed, or have stood the test of time.

To look back at something an critique it in a negative way, by judging it by todays standards for the sake of it serves no purpose as far as I can see. What's the point?

Anyway it was about Doom 4 as Rev cleared up so it was a moot point anyway.

[PaB]

Things are changing for the better.

One of the points a friend of mine made was that whilst the Husband ran off round the Galaxy trying to fix everything, the wife was at home looking at a glass screen appearing worried.

[Harsin]

I think that probably had more to do with the fact that Carrie Fisher looked like she could barely stand up for extended periods.

[matt0]

I don't think there is much value in critiquing a 20-30 year old work and judging it by todays standards unless it is to highlight how things have changed, or have stood the test of time.

So essentially, you don't see much value in critiquing a 20-30 year old work, but you've just provided two examples of when it might be valuable?

[matt0]

I think that probably had more to do with the fact that Carrie Fisher looked like she could barely stand up for extended periods.

Also she was the general, which I thought was pretty cool.

[ZOK]

*Sigh* Lots of accusations to tackle over the last 3-4 posts. If people think criticising Doom for being violent is revelatory and has any merit, or that criticism itself is beyond criticism then there's little point continuing this discussion.

You seem to be unable to parse this at all.

Criticism need not be revelatory, or even have any merit. That doesn't make it beyond criticism, or justify why it shouldn't be made.

You are just saying 'well it just shouldn't exist', which is silly.

[PaB]

So essentially, you don't see much value in critiquing a 20-30 year old work, but you've just provided two examples of when it might be valuable?

I don't think there is much value in critiquing a 20-30 year old work and judging it by todays standards unless it is to highlight how things have changed, or have stood the test of time.

To look back at something an critique it in a negative way, by judging it by todays standards for the sake of it serves no purpose as far as I can see. What's the point?

Anyway it was about Doom 4 as Rev cleared up so it was a moot point anyway.

[matt0]

To look back at something an critique it in a negative way, by judging it by todays standards for the sake of it serves no purpose as far as I can see. What's the point?

Greater understanding:

But I think, if pushed, I could probably make a decent case for how Doom, in becoming the template for the FPS and the FPS becoming one of the most prominent genres in AAA game design has had an unintended detrimental effect on the evolution of videogames. A focus on slapstick ultraviolence that undercuts the narrative, thematic and philosophical ambitions of plenty of games just because it's how things are done, how you make an FPS (Bioshock is a franchise that suffers terribly from this). And it started with Doom. So yeah, even as a huge fan, I think there's some merit in exploring the idea that the violence in Doom might have a downside.

It might be a moot point but it dovetails neatly in to the discussion of how resistant people are to criticism of videogames.

[Unofficial Who]

One of the points a friend of mine made was that whilst the Husband ran off round the Galaxy trying to fix everything, the wife was at home looking at a glass screen appearing worried.

Touché. (And a great counter point.)

[Dig Dug]

I think there is merit in critiquing something old should said something still be a prevalent influence in the modern day.

Our understanding of what a game is and how a game should be comes mostly from already existing titles, in the case of the first person shooter genre most of our understanding of what a FPS is and how it should play, function and be structured comes from Doom. That's not to say game designers shouldn't be able to do that, it is proven to work but it also creates expectation of game design (something I'm very concerned about), it's the reason why people complained about the lack of action in Gone Home for example.

It is also partly the reason why we see game mechanics become gendered. On the base level there shouldn't be anything gendered about a virtual space seen through the first person (was this not one of the original goals of VR?) yet most people would define the FPS as a boys genre. You could try and pin this on the themes that are used for FPS game but that would be ignoring the root of the problem, specifically why such themes are often associated with the play genre in the first place.

In this alone there is solid reasoning behind critiquing a game such as Doom over 20 years after it's release.

[PaB]

It might be a moot point but it dovetails neatly in to the discussion of how resistant people are to criticism of videogames.

I think that games have moved on a huge amount from 1995. I;m not buying this "FPS = bad" narrative . Thereis room for all sorts of videogame entertainment. Book and films are far more advanced, but even they still have their mindless moments, and they can have them. There's nothing wrong with that.

Videogaming is still in its infancy. And compared to 1995 the wealth of experiences on offer is mind boggling. Not everything has to have a narrative, or be thematic (although unquestionably in recent times, this has been the focus).

I've just finished Bayonetta2 . And I can;t tell you how much fun it was just to play an impeccable videogame, rather than have some heavy going drama simulator (not that I object to these, but it's nice to have a contrast)

[b00dles]

I'm not sure if it's being suggested that everything should be a heavy going drama simulator but if anything, the ultraviolence in Doom was partly down to the technology at the time but the ultraviolence in 4 seems unnecessarily gratuitous, especially some of those 'finishing moves' even more so because you seem to be invulnerable during and it seems as much a lazy trope as the damsel in distress.

Having said that, I think the industry needs more genres really because FPS is so varied these days that it would probably make more sense for there to be... I dunno FPHorror, FPRPG, FPpuzzlegame and I think it's fair to have a generic, or a simple FPS for your Dooms or things like Black or FEAR maybe.

It would be interesting to think what might have happened had Wolfenstein/ Doom not had shooting in it though, if the engine was used for a dungeon master or a puzzle game or something.

[Anne Summers]

I know we say it is a lot, but video gaming shouldn't really still be in its infancy. We're getting on for 50 years on from the point where they started to become toys that everyday folks have in their homes. One way of looking at that is that we're where cinema was in the 70s. Which means that gaming's Citizen Kanes, Casablancas and Laurence of Arabias should have been made by now. Gaming's Star Wars's and Raiders of the Lost Arcs should be along soon. I suppose cinema is the only other mainstream entertainment form we can really compare with as everything else, art, music etc, has been around since time immemorial. Maybe even comparing it to cinema is pointless, which would of course render this entire post meaningless.

[matt0]

I think that games have moved on a huge amount from 1995. I;m not buying this "FPS = bad" narrative . Thereis room for all sorts of videogame entertainment. Book and films are far more advanced, but even they still have their mindless moments, and they can have them. There's nothing wrong with that.

Videogaming is still in its infancy. And compared to 1995 the wealth of experiences on offer is mind boggling. Not everything has to have a narrative, or be thematic (although unquestionably in recent times, this has been the focus).

I've just finished Bayonetta2 . And I can;t tell you how much fun it was just to play an impeccable videogame, rather than have some heavy going drama simulator (not that I object to these, but it's nice to have a contrast)

Just to highlight something - do you realise you've invented this "narrative" out of thin air?

I love Doom, I talked about my enduring obsession with the original game just a few posts up. it's one of my favourite videogames of all time, along with my personal favourites in the evolution of the single player FPS through Quake, Half Life, Halo, Fear, Far Cry 2.

At no point have I said that FPS = bad and I'm not saying that narrative = good, at least not as a stick to beat games that don't have a narrative. My current go to shooter is Rainbow Six Siege which is so lacking in narrative that it doesn't even have a single player campaign.

What I'm saying is that Doom, as a template for the FPS has steered the genre (and by extension AAA game design as the FPS has had a huge influence on western action games in general) in a very specific direction, a direction which I think has had some negative consequences down the years despite being a huge fan of a great many of the games that came in its wake.

You'll find Bayonetta 2 on my shelf right next to EDF 2025 and I had tears of sheer nostalgic joy in my eyes watching The Force Awakens despite being able to recognise it's a pretty dumb movie.

EDIT: If it seems like I'm labouring on this point it's because these assumptions, that looking at an aspect of a game in a negative light is the same as dismissing the game. That stopping to look at something from one angle means you instantly dismiss looking at it from other angles are everywhere and they're deeply limiting and at the heart of the massive overreaction to Sarkessian's videos.

[Fry Crayola]

One way of looking at that is that we're where cinema was in the 70s. Which means that gaming's Citizen Kanes, Casablancas and Laurence of Arabias should have been made by now.

I don't agree with that - even setting aside how the interactivity of games mean it's a much newer art form, the classics of cinema would be difficult to create if the technology of the era limited the production in the way gaming tech does.

If gaming is where cinema was in the 70s, then you're asking for the medium's Citizen Kane to have been created on a ZX Spectrum. The rate of progress is too slow to allow that to happen.

[NEG]

I sure hope the expectation of the equilivant of 70's film is based on fun and nothing else.

[Capwn]

Even StarWars Monopoly has snubbed Rey :/ I don't understand people who say 'Well, it's all about the money!' because this SW especially was aimed at everyone. Even boys/men would like her to be included right? because she was essentially the most important new protagonist? I really don't get it. Sad thing is that this stuff happens across the board but it's only noticed this time because it's SW.

[Fry Crayola]

I sure hope the expectation of the equilivant of 70's film is based on fun and nothing else.

Equivalent, within the boundaries of the medium, yes - so a game and all that entails.

[RubberJohnny]

As Matt0 has said, looking at something from one angle isn't dismissing it from another

You literally did dismiss it though.

[Alex W.]

but by the same token, criticism or dismissal of one of Sarkeesian's points isn't calling for her to be censored either.

You're not criticising or dismissing her points though, you're saying that the things she's talking about shouldn't be talked about, period. Violence in Doom? Star Wars' narrative handling of war? Not to be discussed.

Simply raising a placard that reads "You Can't Say That About Videogames" is not engaging in an exchange of ideas.

[b00dles]

You can't buy a figurine of her apparently, although there is a lego buildable one but no 6 inch 'traditional' figurine.

Although this may all be rubbish as far as I know but I didn't notice any in my local toyshop when I was buying the lego figurines

[Alex W.]

Fuck that, like I got time to read through the essays people have written in here. Hence my qualification that I hadn't read it up front.

Yeah Pete but actually reading the stuff you're planning on criticising to make sure it says what you think it says is probably a good idea, right?

[Broker]

You can't buy a figurine of her apparently, although there is a lego buildable one but no 6 inch 'traditional' figurine.

Although this may all be rubbish as far as I know but I didn't notice any in my local toyshop when I was buying the lego figurines

I thought that when I was in the Disney store but they'd just sold out of Rey.

[TehStu]

Even StarWars Monopoly has snubbed Rey :/ I don't understand people who say 'Well, it's all about the money!' because this SW especially was aimed at everyone. Even boys/men would like her to be included right? because she was essentially the most important new protagonist? I really don't get it. Sad thing is that this stuff happens across the board but it's only noticed this time because it's SW.

Yeah, I can't get my head around this. Alright, Vader and Luke JK are in there as a cross over, but unless the makers of Monopoly are privvy to more information than us plebs are, it's pretty damn obvious that the main characters from TFA were Rey and Kylo Ren. If they really wanted Fin in there (which is fine), ditch Vader and have Luke as Old Luke.

That said, I've got a set from when my mum was a child and it has 6 pieces, which was never an issue.

[Rev]

You can't buy a figurine of her apparently, although there is a lego buildable one but no 6 inch 'traditional' figurine.

Although this may all be rubbish as far as I know but I didn't notice any in my local toyshop when I was buying the lego figurines

About figures, but a TFA spoiler contained within:

The Elite Series, sold in Disney Stores only I think, actually has two versions of Rey. One made before the films came out with her staff, but after the film has come out they've also added Luke's lightsaber. Excellent stuff.

[b00dles]

I thought that when I was in the Disney store but they'd just sold out of Rey.

I've still not seen any in the toy bit of my tesco extra and they had everyone else but again, could have just been weird timing.

[Benny]

I think saying games have not had a "Citizen Kane" moment yet does the medium a disservice. Games like Minecraft have pushed the medium forward, and done far more to show the potential in the form than so many narratively driven experiences, and it is widely enjoyed by people of all ages, backgrounds and interests, and is as unique an auteur creation as that found in any other media.

And it manages it with spectacularly crap technology to boot.

[Capwn]

Online “men’s rights activism” group Return of Kings has claimed that its boycott of ‘Star Wars: The Force Awakens’ cost Disney $4.2 million (£2.8 million) in ticket sales.

http://news.yahoo.com/star-wars-mens-rights-group-claims-its-boycott-122341832.html?soc_src=mediacontentsharebuttons&soc_trk=fb

[NEG]

Are they fans of Lord of The Rings Part 3?