Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[NEG]

44) The Scythian - Positive Female Characters in Video Games

1) Another cool indie looking game I knew nothing about. Another to add to the wish list.

2) Okay, pretty much her first review episode. Nothing for me to add.

3) Stayed for the spoilers, taking months doesn't sound great because of a clock cycle. Blarg ending

45) Jade - Positive Female Characters in Video Games

1) Seems to be a Beyond Good & Evil review. Haven't played, might already own on Steam.

2) Since I might actually PLAY this, I think I'll skip this and agree that Jade's probably a positive/well written female character.

46) Women as Reward - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

1) Might be because I've been doing nothing else since around 4, but it feels like the topic title has already been covered.

2) My main ponder with the examples so far is, no matter how you dress it, men will always desire women to some degree. It's a part of life. Could reward be something else rather then this over-used one though? Sure, fair enough.

3) MEGA DRIVE GAME RINGS OF POWER!11!1...16bit boobies cheat? Wow.

4) Snake, Snaaaaaake!

5) Credit to Resident Evil for the female cast over the years indeed. Haha master of unlocking joke. Costumes, imo, are just fun (although indeed they're just as much catering to the male teen), and sometimes take a lot to even unlock. Although seeing the Revolutions 2 scene is certainly awkward. Urban...Ninja. o_O

6) Empty energy drink container is a interesting (valid) way of putting it.

7) Distract guards with playboy magazine.

8) Horrah for The Stanley Parable

9) Achievements for sex is a bit odd when putting them back to back as examples, indeed.

10) Sad indeed if any gender think themselves entitled of anything from the opposite gender from simply existing.

11) And the examples given are indeed all over the gaming atmosphere alas (when it comes to online gaming which I do have experience with)

12) Starting to wonder who this guy (30mins) is that she's shown several times sitting there with a mic playing games now. Watching a Guy Play Games Simulator 2015? Wait what? No Comedy? I'll get me coat.

13) Observation and imitation indeed. We're creatures of habit.

Yeah, when this type reward is in everything 'as a whole' it does effect social..uh...insert long word here.

[NEG]

Okay. we've reached a point that NEG has more or less said "I wasn't aware how prolific this stuff was, I accept it is a problem, it's good to have it pointed out and Anita wasn't a 'crazy fem type' advocating for censorship". That's enough for closure for me. I can't be doing with pulling any more teeth.

Thing is, if a dev is put off making something because of the awareness of these issues, it's still censorship. They should still make them, for better or worse to what they themselves believe. Edit: No matter how much you or I may dislike it.

More likely it's been a case of 'what sells, lets make more of that and make it edgier' though. Censorship is always something to be weary of and brought up. That's always (once I understood) been my point when I say censorship.

Without wanting to put words in NEG's mouth, it does seem rather ironically he's ended up more pro-censorship than Anita has ever been. I don't think she's ever suggested that games should be removed from shelves.

Removed but not completely. Make people at least feel uncomfortable or stop to think before wanting games with the stuff GTA has in it is, I think, a positive. Rather that then GTA VI to be not what fans of GTA want the game to be.

Edit: Same would go for DOA Vollyball 2 in my mind, which whilst does a lot less compared to GTA is still essentially softcore porn.

[Wiper]

I'm going to go against the trend here and say that I don't have an issue with the way NEG's gone about deconstructing the videos piece by piece. Yeah, it's not the most exciting form of post to read, but then it's not really NEG's responsibility to be entertaining; he's just taking each example and considering/commenting on them individually. Now, if he was going out of his way to refute each issue I'd think it were bad faith criticism, but that's not what he's been doing.

Instead, Neg has agreed with some points, admitted surprise at realising how prevalent/severe examples of others were, and queried the merit of others. Obviously the point of the Tropes videos is to show the prevalence of certain topics, rather than each individual component being an argument to stand alone and be dissected individually, but when encountering a series of examples it's natural (particularly if you're not already on the same wavelength of criticism) to consider each individually, with reflection on the whole coming once you've sorted out your thoughts on each one. Perhaps most of us would take those individual concerns ("Oh, that's a pretty egregious example. Not sure if I entirely agree with this one") and consider them privately, providing only our overall thoughts for public consumption, but I don't mind seeing NEG's workings, as it were, even if I don't agree with a good few of them.

Also, I'm always happy to see the only sensible, human response to Bionic Commando:

HIS WIFE IS HIS ARM - HIS WIFE IS HIS ARM.

Edit: also, NEG. Play Beyond Good & Evil, for goodness' sake. It's really good.

[NEG]

47) Women as Reward - Special DLC Mini-Episode

1) Even Final Fantasy has gone down the costume DLC route? Bah

2) Big Bikini Bundle indeed. And phone calls. I want Sonic to phone me for pre-ordering.

3) Yeah, sex sells is not an excuse. Your not buying a game for the costumes you can unlock in Resident Evil for example, although, if RE were released today, you'd have nothing to unlock. 2.99 please.

48) Assassin's Creed Syndicate Review

1) Not a game I'm interested in, and labeled as a review so unless there's something anyone considers I'd miss, probably no point in me watching.

49) Rise of the Tomb Raider Review

1) I do like Tomb Raider but hadn't played the reboot yet properly (half hour), and might yet play both.

2) But I do remember all the critic the first reboot got, and all the killing like this reviewer (Bob) is mentioning. The game wants to be one thing when it's clearly another. All the violence would be fine for Tomb Raider if it didn't hide it...but TR also doesn't need this much of it, it just needs tombs (and occasionally large animals and dinosaurs).

3) The voice acting doesn't seem great

4) Yup, 'lack of morality' is the problem here. Plenty of games guilty of this.

5) Still looks like a linear straight line blarg, too. Pretty at least indeed.

6) Stuff to collect is not a complaint in my book for a Tomb Raider game.

[robdood]

Thing is, if a dev is put off making something because of the awareness of these issues, it's still censorship. They should still make them, for better or worse to what they themselves believe. Edit: No matter how much you or I may dislike it.

I don't agree. It's not about NEVER using something like a damsel. Sometimes it will be appropriate. It's about making people think about things before just lazily slapping a damsel in their game (or movie or book or whatever) for rescuing.

[Spacehost]

Thing is, if a dev is put off making something because of the awareness of these issues, it's still censorship

In what possible universe is making decisions about what you create based on opinions formed from your knowledge censorship.

[Wiper]

Yeah, I'd not seen that post until now - censorship would be the opposite, a developer feeling pressured to 'keep something in' after they'd gained an awareness of an issue and decided that they wanted to change it.

[NEG]

I don't agree. It's not about NEVER using something like a damsel. Sometimes it will be appropriate. It's about making people think about things before just lazily slapping a damsel in their game (or movie or book or whatever) for rescuing.

Do agree with that. Tricky to point out what I'm trying to say, really. It's not a 1 to 1 example but say, if a TV channel still wants to put on smoking ads, it's their freedom of choice to do so. (unless it's now banned to do so, probably is) Smoking becoming taboo took years and years until people finally understood. I believe Geek made a similar post a few weeks back regarding playboy.

Damsels are not all bad indeed. Less use has to come naturally, is perhaps more along the lines of what I'm trying to say. (which can be seen as a 'well duh' comment) Rather then anyone feeling awkward about doing so.

50) 5 Ways Men Can Help End Sexism

1) Oh hey, Bell Hooks stuff. Didn't really understand the first rant.

2) Do we really have a problem listening to females? Well maybe not myself but okay. Maybe talking to the 13 year olds.

3) Educate yourself, aka, actually watch the rest of the channel. Ahem.

4) Men definitely do need to talk/point out to other men doing/acting the wrong. Sound advice.

5) This is sounding more of a 'how to talk to people 101' lecture. Hrm. The mistake of getting defensive can be applied to anyone.

6) Not sure I understood the cookie comment either. Guessing he means if I don't interact I shouldn't consider myself decent? Bit harsh and not the best of recruitment lines.

7) Feeling uneasy? I wish you were telling me to watch the main videos of the channel instead.

Not the best of videos to end on, which is a shame as it's the last/latest one. He could have easily suggested better things like 'think before typing/speaking online' or just generally be more respectful of everyone around you, including when inside realistic games and see how that makes you feel. The video didn't feel like it was made for this channels audience, if that makes sense.

WE'RE DONE! MERRY CHRISTMAS

[NEG]

In what possible universe is making decisions about what you create based on opinions formed from your knowledge censorship.

Basically if I was feeling like I'd get backlash for making a game with damsels and don't make it as a result, but yes, hard calling it censorship at the imaginary 'in my brain' stage.

[Alex W.]

Basically if I was feeling like I'd get backlash for making a game with damsels and don't make it as a result, but yes, hard calling it censorship at the imaginary 'in my brain' stage.

Also there's no backlash.

[Wiper]

Basically if I was feeling like I'd get backlash for making a game with damsels and don't make it as a result, but yes, hard calling it censorship at the imaginary 'in my brain' stage.

There's a huge difference between "I don't want to do this because I'm afraid of a backlash", and "I don't want to do this having gained an awareness of the subject", and frankly, if aggressive backlash is what a developer feels then they're more likely to keep the old tropes in, as they'll be far more likely to invite an angry mob if they actually make a game seen as 'social justice' friendly. Particularly if it's an obvious move away from their previous game design.

[NEG]

Also there's no backlash.

Feeling has applied to no doubt any number of women devs for example though, despite being free to make whatever they want. So you know what I mean.

There's a huge difference between "I don't want to do this because I'm afraid of a backlash", and "I don't want to do this having gained an awareness of the subject", and frankly, if aggressive backlash is what a developer feels then they're more likely to keep the old tropes in, as they'll be far more likely to invite an angry mob if they actually make a game seen as 'social justice' friendly. Particularly if it's an obvious move away from their previous game design.

At the moment, very much so. But yes, maybe not even in 30 years where everything is more just and fair, why would a angry mob do anything along the lines of what's done to women devs today for having damsels, sexist jokes and violence. Most probably not indeed.

[NEG]

That's not censorship. That's market forces. If I don't run a race because I'm lazy or self-conscious or busy that day, that's not censorship, it's my free choice. I'm not banned from running the race.

Censorship is: The suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security.

Censorship is not: choosing to do something different.

If your personal beliefs are not popular, it's still something. There are cases around the world where certain subjects are failed to be seen as a good thing to be interested about (political ones) and because of that booming voice the other voice gets quieter to non-existent. Whilst gaming is nowhere near the same scale, the idea of any voice not being heard similarly annoys me. In some cases they may just not be plain able to say/do something DUE to opposite forces. I wouldn't compare that so simply to 'not being able to get up in the morning'. In some cases it's not a freedom of choice.

Not important to the discussion of tropes though, Wiper pretty much answered it (100%) fine.

[NEG]

Yes, you do have a problem listening to females. You've repeatedly demonstrated that in this thread. For example, you said women don't feel any more scared of violence than men. You've denied that sexism is a problem in video games. You've failed to listen to Anita for 3 years whilst making assumptions she is a 'crazy fem'. You've repeatedly contradicted my experience as a woman.

Perhaps it just blurs into your general problems listening or taking anybody else's perspective. I don't know.

Problem listening would be ignoring what you are saying, and I don't believe I've ever done that, Geekette. I've continued (as you no doubt have) to try and understand one another.

Lack of experience being a woman did make me say violence was equal in the fear department, one very good post proved me wrong. I did say sexism probably wasn't a problem, again until I learned, and I don't know if it was one of your posts or Anita's videos just now the sheer extent of it, again, not a listening to females problem.

Lack of interest in the subject is not the same as failing to listen for 3 years, either. I may have contradicted your experiences but only because I assumed we're more alike than I thought on some things. I was wrong.

I always make time when it comes to listening. It's the believing part that takes longer.

But all voices should not be given equal weight. We should amplify the voices of those who are disempowered and/or where they have something important to say. Otherwise everyone is talking about everything and it is just noise. Have you not recognised that equally weighting shouty rebuttals to the tropes video with the tropes themselves gave you a skew picture?

Also, just a little thing, but stop calling me Geek. I chose the name Geekette because I wanted to be identified as female. It is as if you are deliberately changing my gender in every reply to me. It's like calling me mister, or shortening Jacqueline to Jack so your mates don't think you are friends with a girl.

No one should be the choosers of who's voice gets given weight .Not when money alone can buy you a voice. We can agree to disagree there.

Sorry, I was shortening for shortening sake, rather then a means of insult. I also saw it as a cute 'friend' shortening, Gee would be even cuter, thinking about it. But fair enough, Geekette.

[NEG]

So, everyone happy? Have I solved the rubix cube yet? Can we let that one guy know that was waiting for a 10+ pos post to confirm my understanding?

...

My arse hurts. Been here since 4. Don't try this at home, kids.

[Ersatz Nihilist]

I always make time when it comes to listening. It's the believing part that takes longer.

That's weird because earlier in the thread after you watched a single video with a bloke accusing Sarkeesian of being sour faced you said and were called on it "You could certainly be right about misinterpretation, but I haven't got any reason not to believe him any more than anyone else on the topic".

It's funny how easily and quickly belief came in that instance.

[NEG]

I brought that up to debate, not belief.

The one's I had a hint of believing were channels I already followed, such as ReviewTechUSA, but was only half-listening, if you catch my drift. Channels you follow for a long time you have a hard time figuring they're wrong at first.

The frog video was convincing though!

[Ersatz Nihilist]

I brought that up to debate, not belief.

No, you said you had no reason not to believe him. You believed what he said.

Yet belief of anything from here takes a long time, it seems.

[NEG]

To the same degree of any other video. I was stating his opinion is not automatically flawed just because it's his.

[Ersatz Nihilist]

To the same degree of any other video. I was stating his opinion is not automatically flawed just because it's his.

Regardless of format, why is it that what people tell you and post over here require belief to be built up slowly over time - but videos like that are inherently believable and given a free pass? Because it conformed to your own bias? I struggle to believe it was because you were unaware of the counterargument, because it was a counterargument itself.

[NEG]

Making a video and speaking into it takes a little longer than text on a forum, so perhaps there's that. (why spent effort on a video your wrong about)

I mean, you can insult me all day for not watching certain stuff sooner, or why I kept showing discussion videos on Anita's videos, rather then discussing Anita's videos. Took me time. If you want me to insult myself believe me I do that for many other things already. I do admit to going about things the wrong way. That was fixed however many moons ago..

[Ersatz Nihilist]

Making a video and speaking into it takes a little longer than text on a forum, so perhaps there's that. (why spent effort on a video your wrong about)

I mean, you can insult me all day for not watching certain stuff sooner, or why I kept showing discussion videos on Anita's videos, rather then discussing Anita's videos. Took me time. If you want me to insult myself believe me I do that for many other things already. I do admit to going about things the wrong way. That was fixed however many moons ago..

I don't believe I've insulted you. You attitude toward yourself is your own problem.

So basically, you're saying that the medium was instrumental in it's ability to convince you. Video takes more time than a post, so therefore must be more inherently truthful? Why then did it take you weeks to get round to watching the Tropes videos? For a long time, you seemed to be willingly avoiding it.

[NEG]

Give the audience what it wants and you have no audience.

[Ersatz Nihilist]

Give the audience what it wants and you have no audience.

Very good. Now the actual answer?

[NEG]

No, seriously, that's it. I was taking it slower than I should have but I began watching Anita's 2 weeks ago or whenever it was.

I was implying you are free to insult me on many things, but bringing up how I began seems pointless when I've admitted to plenty of mistakes along the way.

And no, not saying videos are instrumental, just a example of why perhaps I put more credits to a video and didn't automatically dismiss it. There is no reason to all reasons. Besides God and/or Yuji Naka.

[Darren]

To be fair NEG, I think you're probably wired up a little differently to most, which is why this has been such an infuriatingly frustrating process, but I do believe you have been posting in good faith. And what do you know, after all this it's great to see you come to the realisation that Anita is not the devil, she doesn't want to destroy gaming or censor games and she doesn't want to kill gamers. Kind of makes you wonder what all those angry response video guys have got their knickers in a twist about, doesn't it? It's almost as if they're all clueless on the subject they're pontificating about. Or maybe deliberately misrepresenting what they know to be the truth because they just plain hate women.

[ChewMagma]

Well, that's the end of that chapter

[NEG]

To be fair NEG, I think you're probably wired up a little differently to most, which is why this has been such an infuriatingly frustrating process, but I do believe you have been posting in good faith. And what do you know, after all this it's great to see you come to the realisation that Anita is not the devil, she doesn't want to destroy gaming or censor games and she doesn't want to kill gamers. Kind of makes you wonder what all those angry response video guys have got their knickers in a twist about, doesn't it? It's almost as if they're all clueless on the subject they're pontificating about. Or maybe deliberately misrepresenting what they know to be the truth because they just plain hate women.

Yup, videos like the Sargon guy can't simply be misinformed like others might be that I simply gave benefit of the doubt to, they have a real hate agenda in retrospect. For what? Being able to kill hookers without critic? I don't know.

I really wouldn't have bothered this long (on this subject) if I didn't care about Rllmuk, because I hated the idea of the things I was being called in a place I've been for as long as it's existed. Figured people knew me better then to be a hater of anything or wanting to derail a subject.

Thank you, makes me feel I didn't spend this day for nothing.

[Capwn]

8 hours...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noX1ANPhaZ4

[Broker]

In what possible universe is making decisions about what you create based on opinions formed from your knowledge censorship.

The same world where it's apparently worthwhile to attempt to discuss a complex issue with someone who isn't interested in actually experiencing the material the discussion is about for several weeks?