Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[S0L]

Just to show I'm sticking to my side of the deal...

Actually quite enjoying it. So at least someone has got something out of this exchange so far!

[Shoes]

It's amazing. This thread has been worth it.

[NEG]

My thoughts on videos 1-10 can be found here: http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?/topic/262506-tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/?p=10691660

Okay so, kind of grateful I'm not doing the videos in order of her channel. Whilst there's probably still stuff there worth discussing, I noticed it would been around video 33 before we even reach the Tropes Video Games stuff (I didn't calculate last time). So Tropes and beyond it is.

Whilst Tropes is undeniably her most popular thing, it seems a shame she's let other media subjects off her topic videos ever since the first Tropes video it seems. No more programme/movie/book ones from a glance.

33) Support My Kickstarter Project - Tropes Vs Women in Video Games

Lot's of references to her older videos that makes me wish I hadn't jumped forward. Guessing 5 topics is no longer the plan these days, we'll see.

It was just 2 backers away from having 6969 backers! :: giggle ::

34) Damsel in Distress: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

I like her very first point which I understood as: no matter what we like, we can always pick holes in it. True of most things.

1) Dinosaur Planet - I'd forgotten that Krystal was the star of the N64 version and quite the shame indeed. As a big Rare fan (and having seen what other Rare fans have said over the years) it was pretty clear in general that Rare's vision was diminished with Nintendo doing what it did. I remember even reviewers mentioning how shoehorned the Star Fox bits felt. Still turned out okay, but you need to leave Rare to do their own thing.

2) Ancient poems/stories/History in film - Whilst it's okay trying to pinpoint why/how Tropes became so common in the history, maybe she should have started here instead of a game example. Because the ancient mythology/story stuff was flying over my head/am confused by the point of it.

3) Mario - 3D World probably wasn't out yet in her statement about Peach being unplayable in anything but Mario 2. Why oh why the New games give us playable Toads instead of other main characters was baffling indeed. I ponder if it really was a case of just copying Nintendo when it comes to the question of so many damsels in video games. Helplessness/requiring to be saved isn't wrong by itself, mind. But certainly if it's overused and blah blah.

4) Zelda - This is feeling like a Miyamoto Damnation episode to some degree. But I suppose setting the most 'popular' examples everyone can be familiar with works. Zelda is certainly the helpful damsel, but she's a lot more of a character then Peach in general, not just a item giver. Again not the deepest character out there, but you know.

5) Sonic CD & Double Dragon - Not sure why it's here, but Sonic doesn't even 'care' about saving Amy any more than any other animal in the game. Whilst being punched as a way of getting kidnapped is crap...well, it's certainly a way to get kidnapped all the same.

Her video quality has certainly increased last time I've been here.

35) Damsel in Distress: Part 2 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

More modern games I probably will comment less on as I usually just play less of certain popular titles out there.

1) Shock value - Women used in trope more then men. Yeah, makes sense. Though I'm surprised to hear the gender reversal doesn't happen as often. (as in, some guy dying, even if the main character is still a guy.) I need to see Wreck-It-Ralph. Agreed that this kind of thing alone doesn't make a story mature.

2) HIS WIFE IS HIS ARM - HIS WIFE IS HIS ARM.

3) This is a depressing amount of death/begging to die. Depressing even 'if' the other way around existed in plentiful amounts.

4) Violence to senses - Depends on the story and although can be considered a trope, I'm not sure you can relate it to real life violence. Not a nice thing regardless. She could have said 'violence against both genders' and not just women, though.

5) Dev's probably just haven't thought much - Yup.

6) These things don't turn necessarily turn people into sexists - Yup.

7) Taking what's yours - Whilst I understand what she's saying, lets take a married couple. Isn't taking a person that's very important to your life as a whole meaningful/impactful? Or is it just poking at the 'taking whats yours' line. Which by itself, okay, may sound bad, but not exactly wrong either. Some couples believe in the concept of being made for each other, after all. Regardless of that feeling being wrong or not.

So happy To The Moon and Dear Esther are noted at the end, regardless of not saying them by name or not.

Definitely impressed by the amount she's delved into the medium (and understanding most games correctly) if she wasn't much of a gamer before this.

I'll post this to not make the post overly long. Enjoy!

Hehe, I don't mind him looking at Cool Ghosts as long as he does THIS ONE FIRST.

I've been subbed to him for a few years, just haven't been watching as much.

[b00dles]

So would you agree she's a sour faced bitch and wants to kill all the games now? Because you seem to agree that it's generally quite well researched and a fair discussion point.

[robdood]

NEG you were supposed to start with the video SOL posted above Ffs.

[NEG]

36) Damsel in Distress: Part 3 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

1) Aquaria - Same friend that recommended Undertale to me did similarly this game, I own it but hadn't played yet. Yay for obscurer indie stuff.

2) Spelunky - The guy having a bow is hilarious.

3) Flying Hamster - There's a game called Flying Hamster?!

4) Super Meat Boy - This is the only game I'd mainly defend as saving Bandage Girl is such a minor point to the game as a whole with it's hilarious cutscenes, and the last unlockable world you actually play as Bandage Girl instead. (though is the most painfully hard world, being the very last one) Oh, okay, she actually notes this later.

5) Rayman Origins/Legends - Valid, saving from cages was a throwback to Rayman 1, mind.

6) Poking at trope comedy (like Earthworm Jim) is a bit hit and miss. Sometimes it really is harmless amusing comedy. Still worth pointing out though, fair enough.

7) Thomas Was Alone - <3

[b00dles]

I'm giving up geekette.

I still can't work out if NEG just has no level of comprehension or is and has been trolling because it's precisely not in any way a remotely normal thing to do in response to that video.

I'd almost rather a GG type "but freedom of speech, creativity, censorSHIPZZ!!" would have made more sense than a weird listing of the games she's talked about and if NEG has heard of them.

I don't know how that is meant to be helpful to discussion or interesting in any way. This is now just a weird thread of YT videos NEG has seen and the games mentioned in them.

[matt0]

Is it just me, or is the whole point of the tropes videos to not get caught up in how it relates to any individual game, but to recognise the recurrent patterns or themes that emerge? Because, this separation of response into every game mentioned seems (as usual) to miss that point entirely.

It's in the first chapter of the troll handbook - respond to trends and generalities with specifics, respond to specifics with trends and generalities.

I will buy, declare ownership of and then eat a hat if there's any drop of sense, understanding or genuine discussion to be wrung out of NEG in this thread.

[Mr Cochese]

I know it's been fun for for a few days for you, but you guys realise that NEG basically has the mind of a child, right?

[NEG]

37) The Legend of the Last Princess

Cool game, would buy.

38) Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

1) Ms. Pac-Man - The things Pac-Man's creator stated as stuff women like wasn't deliberately ill-will intended, mind.

2) Bubble Bobble - I had no idea Bub & Bob's girlfriends had names. Peb & Pab. Mind blown.

3) The Bow Issue - Whilst the issue is valid, not sure how Anita would want females drawn? Just less pink and bows? Okay she goes into it, again, mainly a case of over-use being the concern.

4) Wendy Koopa - Wendy Koopa

5) Yay Kirby!

6) Scribblenaughts - Only 1 female in a 40+ sibling family? Ouch

7) The Smurfette Principle quote is pretty great and pretty much sums up everything said so far.

8) Adam & Eve - What o_O

9) Angry Birds - Again not sure how you'd draw female characters without the standard tropes here.

10) Mass Effect - Only played a bit of the first Mass Effect, I chose Femshep. Definitely crappy only male was marketed.

[NEG]

So would you agree she's a sour faced bitch and wants to kill all the games now? Because you seem to agree that it's generally quite well researched and a fair discussion point.

Censorship seems much less of a concern the more I watch if that's what you mean.

Is it just me, or is the whole point of the tropes videos to not get caught up in how it relates to any individual game, but to recognise the recurrent patterns or themes that emerge? Because, this separation of response into every game mentioned seems (as usual) to miss that point entirely.

Stating my thoughts on the examples given is just for fun and show's I'm paying attention to what's being said/shown whilst bringing up any discussion points I feel to add.. The issue 'as a whole' I understand and understood it when people explained it two or more weeks ago.

I'm giving up geekette.

I still can't work out if NEG just has no level of comprehension or is and has been trolling because it's precisely not in any way a remotely normal thing to do in response to that video.

I'd almost rather a GG type "but freedom of speech, creativity, censorSHIPZZ!!" would have made more sense than a weird listing of the games she's talked about and if NEG has heard of them.

I don't know how that is meant to be helpful to discussion or interesting in any way. This is now just a weird thread of YT videos NEG has seen and the games mentioned in them.

Not sure what's wrong now, Boodles. Just commenting on what I'm watching

[Alex W.]

The things Pac-Man's creator stated as stuff women like wasn't deliberately ill-will intended, mind.

That's one of the fundamental assumptions the videos make.

[Fry Crayola]

9) Angry Birds - Again not sure how you'd draw female characters without the standard tropes here.

Why do female characters have to have obvious physical characteristics? Why not male characters defined with a top hat and cane, on top of an otherwise default female character?

That's the argument being made - that males become the default, and females are a deviation from that.

[Michael J Glocks]

Just commenting on what I'm watching

Why?

[b00dles]

Censorship seems much less of a concern the more I watch if that's what you mean.

Not sure what's wrong now, Boodles. Just commenting on what I'm watching

1st line response is good, maybe we're getting through to him and I'm not going to lose my mind.

and then;

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THEM? I'm really struggling not just slinging insults about because fuck me bruce, you've just said if you know about the games and that's basically it and the least important thing about the whole series.

All it would require would be something along the lines of 'They're interesting, glad I watched them, didn't realise it was such an issue but she has made some good points. I apologise for being so blinkered about it for the past two weeks and ignoring what you all have been telling me.'

Or a sensible rebuttal why you don't think she's making a good point. You've done a review akin to watching a bond film and then just saying

london not been, looks a bit grim

venice that looks nice, lots of water

underground volcanic base didn't know this existed! gumpf!

Are you not seeing that? Have you ever heard anyone ever give opinions on anything in the way that you have done?

[NEG]

39) Game Developers Choice Awards 2014 - Ambassador Award recipient Anita Sarkeesian

So people were attacking even the Kickstarter? When only 1 of the 5 topics have even been discussed at the point of this video? Oh man.

She mentions taking games seriously.

40) Woman as Background Decoration: Part 1 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

1) Sexual advertising in any medium has always existed, and indeed gaming's been just as guilty of it.

2) and in games themselves, indeed.

3) Surprised by the amount of whores in games. So much male teen poop in the games shown.

4) GTAV - Fondle well enough for sex? Geez

5) Sleeping Dogs/Dishonored/Deux Ex/GTAV - Painful watching

6) Hitman - In Hitman's case, from what little I know, he's uh, a hitman. Unconcious folks usually is gameplay in games where your trying to sneak around. Death shouldn't be treated lightly, though....

7) Such as the GTAV example straight after. Getting busted just sends you to the front of the police station? Haha

8) Yeah, the general disrespect of human bodies in general in games is concern worthy. This I'd consider definitely more real life impact-worthy than the last topic. (When people play these games)

[robdood]

[Harsin]

This thread is now basically like watching the iMac scene from Zoolander on a loop for 12 hours.

[NEG]

Why do female characters have to have obvious physical characteristics? Why not male characters defined with a top hat and cane, on top of an otherwise default female character?

That's the argument being made - that males become the default, and females are a deviation from that.

Yeah, understand the argument, and no they don't need to have the obvious characteristics. Was just wondering what would be the right way to go about it there, when you have fairly obvious male characters in Angry Birds case. It's certainly depressing they bothered to add crap to the white bird after a while.

Why?

Fun, and show's I'm listening.

1st line response is good, maybe we're getting through to him and I'm not going to lose my mind.

and then;

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THEM? I'm really struggling not just slinging insults about because fuck me bruce, you've just said if you know about the games and that's basically it and the least important thing about the whole series.

All it would require would be something along the lines of 'They're interesting, glad I watched them, didn't realise it was such an issue but she has made some good points. I apologise for being so blinkered about it for the past two weeks and ignoring what you all have been telling me.'

Or a sensible rebuttal why you don't think she's making a good point. You've done a review akin to watching a bond film and then just saying

london not been, looks a bit grim

venice that looks nice, lots of water

underground volcanic base didn't know this existed! gumpf!

Are you not seeing that? Have you ever heard anyone ever give opinions on anything in the way that you have done?

I'm in it for the discussion, not just to point out the obvious of yours truly having been wrong. I'm sorry that you don't see every line I type out as credible enough to be discussion worthy, every line is certainly not meant to be.

1) Boodles - Probably likes Sonic. I hope she does. Also a Ren & Stimpy fan? <3

[b00dles]

You're not discussing anything, it isn't a discussion at the moment, do you know what one is? Even the questions I've posed to you haven't been replied to in any meaningful way, if you're like this in face to face interactions you must be the most frustrating person to talk to ever.

Q) Hey NEG, what you up to, have a good weekend?

A) Bananas.

I do like Sonic and ren & stimpy yes, thank you for no good reason kind of asking me a question by way of a numbered bullet point. Oh and I'm a guy, evidently having an avatar of a girl with a balloon I saw in graffitti isn't manly enough so; assumptions. Or is it the fact my nick is apparently also that of a jewellery store?

Oh no, I've almost attempted to have a conversation again, this won't end well. Lucky I'm off home soon.

In fact, tis the season of goodwill; is anyone around for an Xmas London meet to discuss feminism in games with NEG? I genuinely think it will be amazing and fascinating.Or are you not in the big smoke NEG?

[Fry Crayola]

Yeah, understand the argument, and no they don't need to have the obvious characteristics. Was just wondering what would be the right way to go about it there, when you have fairly obvious male characters in Angry Birds case.

Are they fairly obviously male? I mean, they're birds. I can't tell male and female birds apart in real life, never mind when they're essentially circles with faces.

In the general case, the "right way to go about it" is to take a step back and think rather than falling back on the default assumptions. The "right way to go about it" would ideally not have an all-male cast to which a token female is added and lampshaded with a bow.

[Benny]

Has everyone's brain dribbled out of their ears yet?

[Blu3Flame]

I'm in it for the discussion

You're adding nothing to the discussion though. In fact it seems like you're willfully trying to derail it.

[ChewMagma]

You have to give NEG credit really - I for one thought classic Trolling was a lost art, but this has been a masterclass.

[S0L]

Actually, reading between the lines, I can see NEG agreeing there are many good points made, even if he couldn't personally solve some of the problems shown. I don't think it's entirely fair to expect perfect answers to some questions, I know as devs we'd probably find it quite hard to represent a female character in Angry Birds without resorting to some clichés as it's hard to break out of what's been existing practice.

I'd be interested in seeing on overall summing up and an answering of these...

1. Do you believe Anita is calling for censorship?

2. Do you think games could benefit from some changes based on what you've seen in the videos?

3. Do you think perhaps as gamers, we've been blind to a lot of what's been pointed out as we're simply 'used to it'?

4. Did you overall get a slightly different perspective on games as a result of watching those videos and would recognise similar tropes in future?

As really, the exercise was to get NEG to stop and think about what the videos portray. You don't always get that without a little reflection.

[NEG]

41) Women as Background Decoration: Part 2 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

1) Looks like there'll be more depressing scenes this episode. Yup, all the women ads being sexualized sucks.

2) Not that she needs to have played all these games at this point as they'll all pretty disgusting, but I do wonder how she gathers the examples together.

3) GTAV - Being able to watch rape happen? The emoticon for expressing this hasn't been invented yet.

4) Up to pirates now, main thought in my head now is with graphics getting more realistic, I wonder how much longer they could get away with this kind of thing in general without videos pointing it out to the industry. Maybe would carried on, if Mortal Kombat X is anything to go by.

5) Watchdogs - That 'scene' being scriped to happen more than once and randomly throughout the game is sad. It's not even a one off 'save this person?' excuse at that point.

6) Yeah, nearly no passive male victims in games, probably.

7) Again, agreed. Nothing mature about this stuff.

8) No More Heroes 2 - What the fuck was that scene. o_O

9) 'I didn't do it, but I wish I did' Expected coming from God of War, though. Papo & Yo looks like I game I should play.

10) Her last quote is pretty much bang on head. Whilst some games that are perhaps going full realism have some resemblance of a excuse, the majority of these games don't.

42) 25 Invisible Benefits of Gaming While Male

Hrm, no Anita. I'll name all these guys Bob.

1) The benefits are gone by briskly, nothing to disagree with but with some you can certainly put the 'well, nothing is stopping you...!!!' argument on it. (But that's not the point of the video, it's that it's been male influenced and led since the beginning).

2) People can certainly be horrible in online games.

3) I think I recognize some of these folks...

4) Together we will make gaming better.

43) Anita Sarkeesian: 'How to be a feminist' (All About Women 2015)

Ah, the video the borg guy used as evidence of some form of crazy.

Obviously I'd be opening a new void of unending poo if I comment too much on what I took away from it with my 'confident' prospective of understanding, Feminists can decide for themselves as to what kind of Feminism is best for them, but certainly one where they're working together is better then a 'what works for me' attitude. But at the same time what I want might be slightly different than what you want. So on and so forth.

And no, no crazy.

[NEG]

Actually, reading between the lines, I can see NEG agreeing there are many good points made, even if he couldn't personally solve some of the problems shown. I don't think it's entirely fair to expect perfect answers to some questions, I know as devs we'd probably find it quite hard to represent a female character in Angry Birds without resorting to some clichés as it's hard to break out of what's been existing practice.

I'd be interested in seeing on overall summing up and an answering of these...

1. Do you believe Anita is calling for censorship?

2. Do you think games could benefit from some changes based on what you've seen in the videos?

3. Do you think perhaps as gamers, we've been blind to a lot of what's been pointed out as we're simply 'used to it'?

4. Did you overall get a slightly different perspective on games as a result of watching those videos and would recognise similar tropes in future?

As really, the exercise was to get NEG to stop and think about what the videos portray. You don't always get that without a little reflection.

1. Doesn't look like it. Less games with the violence shown could certainly be seen as a positive in my book after viewing these vids. I think I just didn't know just how much of it was out there, in the most popular/advertised games no less.

2. Always depends on the game. But less of what's been exampled would certainly be a plus. Maybe treat games with this much gore/violence/nudity/brothels/rape as something you can only buy by asking the person at the counter, same as cigerettes. Not deserving of being on shelves openly.

3. Not sure if blind is the right word but certainly oblivious, innocently or otherwise. On the other hand I'd have to wonder what GTA devs are thinking when making the decisions they did. Like the folks actually programming that shit in. (I've never played any GTA, for note sake)

4. I got the jist of it before viewing the videos when it comes to tropes, but the violence/body handling stuff was unexpectedly saddening and unexpected. I just hadn't seen it enough in the games 'I' play. I guess I'd recognize it more now, yeah. The bow thing being still used today was a odd realization to see.

Thanks mate, hope you enjoy the game.

[S0L]

I will enjoy Undertale and hopefully you have hopefully enjoyed part of this discussion in here!

I think a lot of people have heard about the Tropes videos and railed against a percieved attempt of censorship without actually watching them, as always the best choice is to make your own mind up having watched them.

[Spacehost]

Okay. we've reached a point that NEG has more or less said "I wasn't aware how prolific this stuff was, I accept it is a problem, it's good to have it pointed out and Anita wasn't a 'crazy fem type' advocating for censorship". That's enough for closure for me. I can't be doing with pulling any more teeth.

It's amazing how something like watching any of the fucking videos clears up what they're about.

[Darren]

Without wanting to put words in NEG's mouth, it does seem rather ironically he's ended up more pro-censorship than Anita has ever been. I don't think she's ever suggested that games should be removed from shelves.