Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Liquid Myth]

Well, at least Japan tries, even if the West tends not to import this stuff - there's Cho Aniki; loads of androgynous anime/game characters where you're never quite sure what sex the protagonist is; gay male dating sims aimed at the ladies.

These games aren't localised, not because of their explicit content or androgynistic content, but purely because publishers don't think that there's a market in the West for them. Not to say anything of Japanese developers who over the years get weird over the idea of filthy foreigners playing their games.

[Broker]

Wait, wait instead of kicking off and devolving into a flame war again, why not respond to whatever is wrong with the video in NEG's post instead of trying to silence him or threatening to ban him, or getting distracted by superficial shit-flinging at Sarkeesian?

I'd never encountered the Bell Hooks stuff before and I have only that video as a source, so can you educate me on how that video misrepresenting Hooks? Is it right to say Sarkeesian is of that school of feminism?

It's not other people's job to educate bigots who assume a clearly mysoginistic YouTube video is a valid point of reference for a feminist scholar. Grow up and find out yourself, or accept that you haven't got the intelligence/level of interest to discuss this topic and fuck off until you've educated yourself above primary school level.

People have wasted a week trying to talk to Neg when he's just not interesting in listening or learning. That's his problem, not anyone else's.

[Broker]

Let me phrase it another way.

What view of Bell Hooks do I need to adopt in order not to get negged, mocked and verbally abused on rllmuk forum?

Because I read some stuff about her and she didn't exaclty come across like Richard Dawkins.*

*What view of Richard Dawkin do I need to adopt in order not to get negged, mocked and verbally abused on rllmuk forum?

Read their work and come up with your own view, then explain it and be ready to discuss your thoughts. Or just head back to YouTube and let some American teenager think for you like you normally do.

[Rowan Morrison]

EDIT: One thing that I thought was a missed opportunity for them was to talk more about Men Going Their Own Way, which I don't know much about but I think is guys wanting to seperate themselves from women entirely

Never heard of that before, but it's right up William Burroughs' 60s / 70s alley, nation states of men getting on with the serious business of dabbling in Scientology, getting off smack and designing gay space colonies that would operate under a code of ethics derived from depression-era hobos. I'm disappointed more MRAs haven't pulled Burroughs into the fray but, at the same time, I'm also kind of glad. Still, giant centipedes and erotic hangings would arguably add a bit of colour to their manifestos.

[earlymodernsteve]

The MGTOW thing has appeared on my right-on Twitter feed but, as with many of these movements, it seems to be filled with contradictions and infighting. There appears to be a split between those who advocate complete abstinence from 'females' whereas others still want to have access to their bodies as 'vessels'. But perhaps that split is dependant on how expensive a house they can buy?

[earlymodernsteve]

Never heard of that before, but it's right up William Burroughs' 60s / 70s alley, nation states of men getting on with the serious business of dabbling in Scientology, getting off smack and designing gay space colonies that would operate under a code of ethics derived from depression-era hobos. I'm disappointed more MRAs haven't pulled Burroughs into the fray but, at the same time, I'm also kind of glad. Still, giant centipedes and erotic hangings would arguably add a bit of colour to their manifestos.

Most MRAs are much more Attenborough than Borroughs though - with everything being a retrograde biological determinism. Which makes the intersection with technology in video games even more ironic.

[Rowan Morrison]

"Vessels", brilliant. Yes, a female would make an excellent alternative to my trusty jam jar.

[Alex W.]

There is this weird overlap between people who think MRA ideas are some sort of evolutionary imperative and people who have purposefully excluded themselves from the gene pool. Figure that one out.

[smac]

These games aren't localised, not because of their explicit content or androgynistic content, but purely because publishers don't think that there's a market in the West for them. Not to say anything of Japanese developers who over the years get weird over the idea of filthy foreigners playing their games.

Yes - my point being more that because these types don't get localised, they don't generate controversy and you might think that the only risqué material produced by Japan involves young girls. We get a skewed view of Japanese culture.

[NEG]

Welcome to the thread Broker

All I can suggest is reading all the posts (discussion!) since that post.

There is no shame in learning from posters of the forum in my view, if anything that may show my level of respect. Still lazy on my part, yes. But nothing particularly wrong with slow learning.

Thanks for re-confirming why I'm sticking around.

[Broker]

If I'd caught up I would've just read you ignoring more helpful people trying to engage you in a discussion that you don't seem remotely interested in having. Seems pointless to me.

[NEG]

I'm sorry that's the impression you got.

Have you hugged your 32X today?

[Broker]

I'll have an angry young man who has never met either of us or read our posts scream it between mysoginistic non-sequiturs in a YouTube video at some point

[NEG]

To me it was no different from the EVE link yesterday. Hey guys, here's what this person is saying, wonder what's up/if it's true/there might be a interesting point in it/what's it all mean.

What's it all mean, man. 42?

Eventually learned that it's better to critic from the horses mouth first (Anita's videos) before anyone else's critic of her that I'd been bumping into for the last year or more.

[KRP]

Keep coming back to this thread, skim reading and looking out for a post by NEG with one of yellow stars so I know he has finally got it and I can rest easy.

Looks like its going to be some time.

[Nick R]

http://philsandifer.tumblr.com/post/135222786881/iandsharman-milo-yiannopoulos-seems-to-have-set

The key thing to understand about Milo Yiannopoulos is that he has a deep and absolute need to be smarter than his audience, and steadily chased downwards to find an audience appropriate for that before finally discovering Gamergate.

[NEG]

So is this finally the admission that you only watched rebuttals and had never watched the tropes videos - and in fact have still not watched any of the tropes videos, because you've given a missed-point-by-missed-point analysis of six unrelated videos that predate them, but not yet shown us that you've watched the very videos that this entire thread is about?

BTW, I went through this thread and the other, to see what you'd said about whether you'd watched them, and you've never given a direct answer

I watched the videos (probably just the first one or two, we'll see), but remembered fairly little. Wasn't lying about that. But heard far more rebuttals over time (due to the nature of not really paying attention to what the fuss is but nodding my head anyway), hence any of that a little more vivid in head. Some gaming youtubers that I follow that are perfectly fine in their video content (about games) caused a fuss about the subject sometimes. (Which seemed not a important subject to pay attention to other than 'well I sure hope games are not censored!')

Sorry if I sounded unclear, wasn't the intent.

I'll only say this once. I'm not the type to ever lie.

PS. Videos 11-20 coming soon, don't worry.

Edit: Mind you, the fact I don't remember much of worth probably means I didn't disagree with her much or didn't think much of it in general. Well, either that or I found it boring!

[NEG]

But it gives me insight into the person as I go along, since a lot of the rebuttals pick on the actual person, her other videos at least give a broader perspective on her personality. Aka: Just how wrong were the rebuttals about her as a person?

By going through all her videos it also shows I can dedicate myself into a subject. After the miss-steps I took, I feel like I owe it to the people annoyed with me in some regard. It's the least I can do to engage in the feminist subject in general.

Because honestly, the thread is hardly just about the Tropes videos, and you darn well know it. It's arguably not even a Gaming Discussion thread because of it.

Edit: And as you may have noticed, I started noticing sexism here and there with all our rambling over time and started sharing them. So thanks. (to all involved)

[Wroth]

But it gives me insight into the person as I go along, since a lot of the rebuttals pick on the actual person, her other videos at least give a broader perspective on her personality. Aka: Just how wrong were the rebuttals about her as a person?

Rebuttals directed at the person rather than the argument are irrelevant ad hominems.

[NEG]

Rebuttals directed at the person rather than the argument are irrelevant ad hominems.

Usually in addition, and usually just swearing, but yes, that one video example of: don't listen to this person because she listens to Bell Hooks' wasn't related to anything else 'but' one of Anita's sources, certainly.

But I don't believe it's fundamentally wrong to point out if any of her beliefs/what she's done outside the Tropes videos into question when telling people what she thinks about video games.

Now, at this point I don't believe there's much of anything dodgy about her, and the rebuttals are just digging (aimlessly, possibly desperately) to find or even invent things about her, as evident in that video and the Iwata thing that happened. But you wouldn't be interested in hearing the opinion of Rolf Harris for example.

Her only downside from what I know already is that she doesn't/hasn't played video games. Whilst that doesn't make the information bad or wrong, it would have been nicer knowing a gamer cared enough to tell these things to us, not a non-gamer. The counter-argument to 'it doesn't matter' is that the same issues would have risen eventually.

Anita Sarkeesian is a sensible, moderate, rational person

Not disagreeing from what I'm seeing, but that's your choice of words, not a matter of fact for a lot of people out there. A bit like some taking me for a idiot and worse.

I don't think there's much wrong in stating my thoughts on the other videos, running into the Bachdal Test caused some fruity discussion for example. Also, I pointed out my feelings on particular comments Anita made in the show videos as well. Sorry, but I wouldn't call the time I put into commenting pointless.

[NEG]

Can't quote properly, phone again.

I like to think gamer as someone that 'can' choose to spend their free time playing video games, and has encountered them enough throughout life to be able to speak fondly of certain games. Doesn't have to be into specific genres to pass, doesn't have to keep up with what the industry is up to, just the general valid thumbs up to our passtime, equal to real sports, movies and stamp collecting, is enough in my book to call someone a gamer.

If she hasn't played and appreciated the medium up to a certain point and 'now' does, since/during the making of her videos, that's fine too. Now she's a gamer.

I don't like certain things very much but you get the idea of how bad it can feel getting shit talked by someone who may look down on a hobby all of us here (I'd hope) love. Gaming's taken a lot of steps before being validated by the public eye, seeing it go backwards where it becomes a niche again would suck, and the person shit talking wouldn't care.

Where did the 'gamers are dead' comment spawn from? Because it's a truly horrible antagonistic phrase.

And yes, Anita seems sane, but there's a lot of people to convince otherwise. My own comments on her might help a few to see her as sane too.

Just noticed you edited your post to compare me to six year olds again. Do you realise just how dickishly annoying/insulting that is towards me? Bah

Remind me to badger you to play S3&K at every waking moment.

[NEG]

Oh yay, now to type to the additional stuff instead of sleep.

For Pompeii I recommend the Doctor Who episode on it, it's pretty great!

You are not the judge of what everyone, everywhere, deems a worthwhile comment. No one should consider their thoughts important enough to be listened to, that includes yourself. It's one of life's realities.

If I really wasted your time reading two lines of text on a Twilight video when I say nothing about the books of text you pump out all the time...don't you think you are trying to make a fuss out of completely nothing?

Edit: If it wasn't obvious, I had fun viewing the videos and commenting as I did. Let me have my fun, it's harmless.

Are you suggesting btw that I don't question enough? If I didn't question shit, frogs wouldn't have even been a subject matter! It's not about blind belief it's 'what is the possibility/any truth to it'.

Grumpy cat gif. Humbug. Bed now.

[deerokus]

I find it ridiculous that you have people trying to pass any kind of judgement on her personality, interests or mental health considering 99% of her public work is so deliberately impersonal in tone and presentation. It's like doing the same to one of those non-famous BBC newsreaders like Clive Myrie, or trying to psychoanalyse someone from HR giving a powerpoint presentation on some new rules.

That said, she has been on idle thumbs before, which is the only exception to that rule I have heard or seen of her, and she clearly knows a sufficient amount of her shit. You should listen to it.

https://www.idlethumbs.net/idlethumbs/episodes/the-classic-alien-form

[MDY]

'Gamers are Dead' originated from a Leigh Alexander article for (IIRC) Gamasutra..

It's interesting you're saying "Gamers are Dead" as the phrase she actually used in the article to put across her point was "Gamers are Over."

It's another example of the 'Chinese Whispers' effect that happens when the premise of an article is reduced to bullet points and pull quotes, which are regurgitated to an audience that doesn't bother to read the original and passes that version of it on to fan the flames.. No prizes for guessing which one ended up more widely quoted..

She argues that the audience for games has become so much wider and more diverse than just the cliche of the teenage male for whom it's his primary hobby and those users are less important to the industry than they used to be.. They used to be the ~whole~ of the industry, but that's not been the case for years now.

Gaming is greater than just them now, whether they like it or not and they're harming the industry's future by being insular and inflexible to any kind of evolution.

She feels 'Gamer' has become a label used by the (proportionally) shrinking hard-core crowd, around whom has developed an insular online culture of rabid, factional support for the big brands and that it is having a toxic effect on gaming in general.

[Alex W.]

She wrote that piece in response to the fact that said self-professed "gamers" were, at that point, engaged in a massive harassment campaign against Zoe Quinn, ostensibly to defend their hobby.

All of us should be better than this. You should be deeply questioning your life choices if this and this and this are the prominent public face your business presents to the rest of the world.

All of the "this"-es are links to pieces about Gamergate, shortly before it had a name. It's kind of funny to see how much of Gamergate had already crystallised even when it was still about going after one person's ex girlfriend.

[ZOK]

Let's remember, Anita Sarkeessian never said she wasn't a 'gamer'; on one occasion she said she wasn't 'a fan of games'.

Seeing as being a 'fan' carries a different connotation, that is a better position to be in as a critic, as it means she is more likely to approach the subject with a critical distance. 'Fondness' for the medium is entirely unnecessary for a critic.

On a different note, it's interesting that Gamer Gate use this 'Anita is not a gamer' as a stick to attack her. On the other hand, they lap up any old bullshit from Milo Yiannopoulos who has documented and published his hatred of games and gamers on numerous occasions.

Of course, now he has realised he can get clicks out of gamers, he's a genuine fan of the medium.

[b00dles]

A bit late to th e party but I watched that Reggie Yates doc on iPlayer and I actually thought it was pretty good, I was expecting it to be painfully 'Radio 1-like' and trying to be all cool and hip but Reggie actually comes across as quite a good interviewer and above all, a reasonable, nice chap.

I also think it was very good for them to do it and have Reggie as the presenter as I imagine a lot of the yoof that know Reggie from t'wireless would listen to him at the least and hopefully that would put a buffer between them finding the crazies on the internet when they've had a typical angsty teenager day at school.

NEG, you should watch it too because it covers the 'unknown' of all this strange hate on the internet that has gone unchecked for quite a while, I only know about MGTOW, Roosh and Milo cos of this thread and I'm sure loads of people don't appreciate quite the level and amount of crazy that's out there and also directed toward women.

Roosh seems genuinely unhinged and Milo does just seem to want 'fame' and as has been mentioned, I think GG gives him lots of ego boosts because he can seem like a wise sage when faced with that type of stupid

[ZOK]

All of his docs are worth watching. He did some really good ones on the far right and homosexuality in Russia a while back.

[PaB]

The Russia one was crazy.

[LyonJacques]

He's not as amazing as Stacey Dooley though, watch her first!