Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Alex W.]

Precisely. The point isn't that it's a useful metric for measuring an individual, it's a useful metric for measuring the group.

Of course this is why pointing out whether the new Star Wars movie passes the test is of absolutely no use to anybody.

[Sprite Machine]

The simplicity of the Bechdel test is why it's so effective at raising awareness. I don't think it's right to say it "does nothing" if it's clearly making people take notice.

[Alex W.]

Ah, but if, 90% of films passed, then it wouldn''t be a perceived as a problem, and everything is ok.

Don't be ridiculous, if 90% of movies passed the Bechdel test people would move on to more granular metrics of measuring representation, not consider the problem solved.

[Rev]

The Bechdel test is basically a throwaway joke from a comic strip, using it as analysis is just making sure the unspoken punchline still works 30 years later.

That said, I think it is important some individual films pass it, The Force Awakens being one of them. It seems likely it goes on to have strong female characters too, but it's perfectly possible to do that and not pass the test.

[PaB]

The simplicity of the Bechdel test is why it's so effective at raising awareness. I don't think it's right to say it "does nothing" if it's clearly making people take notice.

Ok. So since it's inception in 1985, what has improved, do you think, in the last 30 years?

Here's an example of what I am on about

http://time.com/4149014/star-wars-the-force-awakens-bechdel-test/

Rebecca Keegan was delighted to tweet the news Monday night (spoiler-free).

Among its many wonderful qualities, STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS passes the Bechdel test.

— Rebecca Keegan (@ThatRebecca) December 15, 2015

It’s just one more encouraging sign that Star Wars has updated its views on women since its Princess Leia-in-the-gold-bikini days

Of course, there is no reason whatsoever , why a Gold Bikini'd Leia could not be in a movie that passes the Bechdel test. But because fucking idiots see it as the de facto standard. Everything is ok.

[PaB]

That said, I think it is important some individual films pass it, The Force Awakens being one of them. It seems likely it goes on to have strong female characters too, but it's perfectly possible to do that and not pass the test.

Ohmychristingfuck.

How do you know that Star Wars the force awakens isn't the most misogynisitic horror show in history , given you know that the entire film already passes based on the trailer.

[robdood]

Of course, there is no reason whatsoever , why a Gold Bikini'd Leia could not be in a movie that passes the Bechdel test. But because fucking idiots see it as the de facto standard. Everything is ok.

But that's not the fault of the test. That's the fault of the idiots.

[Rev]

Ohmychristingfuck.

How do you know that Staw Wars the force awakens isn't the most misgonysitic horror show in history , given you know that the entire film already passes based on the trailer.

By reading/watching interviews with the actors/director/etc.? I'll let you know on Thursday if you want.

You're really weird.

[Alex W.]

How do you know that Star Wars the force awakens isn't the most misogynisitic horror show in history , given you know that the entire film already passes based on the trailer.

By using other information and not being a moron?

Maybe there should be a meta-Bechdel test, what proportion of people are capable of actually understanding the Bechdel test.

[NEG]

You could ask why Anita felt the need to point out films like Toy Story if the bechdal test means anything/as little as the thread is suggesting, just because it's a popular film?

If it means very little to the overall scope of feminism, why is there praise when a film passes? Edit: Ah, because of idiots, as dood suggested.

I want a test for amount of puns in movies, for every movie that doesn't pass the test, it fails. It's fairly pointless, but it doesn't hurt anyone so who cares, right?

Undertale passes the pun test. Praise the heavens. <--This was the equilivant to the Star Wars tweet above.

[PaB]

By using other information and not being a moron?

Maybe there should be a meta-Bechdel test, what proportion of people are capable of actually understanding the Bechdel test.

As evidenced by my previous post It's already being used in a "passes test, everything is a-ok" fashion. Stop being wilfully obtuse.

You're really weird.

Whatever mate.

[Sprite Machine]

When it's feelings and emotions that you think as a human you can relate with (and thus comment on), I'd say my point stands.

Okay, but when you're going on about how important things are or aren't to women, don't be surprised when they pay no attention to you.

[NEG]

Okay, but when you're going on about how important things are or aren't to women, don't be surprised when they pay no attention to you.

I don't mean to dictate what's important. I can only represent myself, as with anyone.

[Alex W.]

As evidenced by my previous post It's already being used in a "passes test, everything is a-ok" fashion. Stop being wilfully obtuse.

Begging your pardon, but the article you linked to does no such thing. Literally every other part of the article is about how it's a low bar to clear and that whether the movie includes good female representation is down to other factors which they go on to describe.

[Rowan Morrison]

Maybe there should be a meta-Bechdel test, what proportion of people are capable of actually understanding the Bechdel test.

Just work it into the Key Stage 2 SATs.

[Dudley]

Should a 2hr 30 film be an 18 if it has a 90 second sex scene?

[jon_cybernet]

Should a 2hr 30 film be an 18 if it has a 90 second sex scene?

I don't think I can think of a single film that's an 18 purely on the basis of one 90 second sex scene?

[Professor Puzzles]

The documentary 'This Film is Not Rated' might have the answer to that. It depends on whether the sex is gay or straight, whether you see a cock and how many thrusts occur during the scene.

[deerokus]

That's about the US though, they're weird puritans.

[Dudley]

I don't think I can think of a single film that's an 18 purely on the basis of one 90 second sex scene?

I probably should have made it clearer I was addressing Pete's surprise than a bare bones basic minimum test could be passed by only part of a movie.

[The Bag]

Decapitation is (or certainly used to be) an instant 18.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

Decapitation is (or certainly used to be) an instant 18.

Hasn't been the case for a long, long time. You get it in PG films on occasion, and certainly in 12A.

[Harsin]

Decapitation is (or certainly used to be) an instant 18.

The first thing that comes to mind on that one is Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

[Mr Cochese]

There are loads of decapitations in the Lord Of The Rings. Only orcs onscreen, but plenty more implied.

[The Bag]

Hasn't been the case for a long, long time. You get it in PG films on occasion, and certainly in 12A.

You're right of course, it's just one of those out of date factoids that sits in my brain. It persisted in games longer, it's one of the reasons there aren't decapitations in Fable 2 when they were in the original, to try and lower the rating.

There's some discussion (NSFW) here http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2015/12/14/from-japan-with-changes-the-endless-debate-over-video-game-censorshipabout localisation. And yeah. some of it is NSFW.

An interesting point bought up about changes due to cultural sensibilities

This is all not a one-way street, either. In Japan, there are concerns over violence and cultural taboos. Later Resident Evil games had decapitations and other gore removed. A Fallout 3 quest where players could defuse or detonate an atomic bomb was changed so players couldnt detonate it. Theres no way to come up with a set of rules applicable to every game and every localisation.

A good piece, I'd like them to do a follow up with either changes to western developed games for Japanese release or just a general round up of cultural changes/considerations most gamers wouldn't even consider.

For example, we almost had to change the hobbes for Japan to have five fingers for Fable 2. In the end we didn't because they were an established thing and different enough from humans.

I'd love to know how big the crossover between the group shouting about these games being censored because artistic freedom, and the group that spent years shouting at us for putting gay NPCs in Fable is.

[deerokus]

I am sure those people would argue that gay characters in games are great, but only if they're suspiciously childlike '18' year old girls.

[smac]

Well, at least Japan tries, even if the West tends not to import this stuff - there's Cho Aniki; loads of androgynous anime/game characters where you're never quite sure what sex the protagonist is; gay male dating sims aimed at the ladies.

[earlymodernsteve]

In a shift from the Bechdel discussions, did anybody catch the Reggie Yates documentary on BBCThree (of all places)? I only saw the final ten minutes but will watch it on IPlayer. Yates is surprisingly good at these, even if they are obviously aimed at an audience a little (shut up) younger than me... Anyway, this week's is on the MRA movement and features Milo and Roosh so should be of interest to us in this thread. Apologies for the 'haven't actually watched' post but they aren't always up on IPlayer for long so figured I'd mention it.

In more general Tropes discussion, a few colleagues (university lecturers/hourly paid uni teachers) have mentioned recently that the past couple of years have seen a marked movement towards students being uncomfortable with being considered 'feminist'. This is depressing given that we teach on literature courses and students are already closing down an area of enquiry before they know what it really means. Often, it transpires that challenging what they understand as 'feminism' can lead to productive discussion but the impact of this is obviously tiny against the more general cultural turn that is displayed by some contributors to this thread. My own perspective on the fears of the reactionary censorship-fearing rabble is informed by the fears of generations of conservative literary scholars when a new approach threatens their dominance of the field. Shakespeare's plays have been denounced as misogynist in far stronger terms than Sarkeesian uses for games yet I see no sign of their removal from sight.

[Broker]

This one from over the summer discusses Anita's own stated influence, a person by the name of Bell Hooks. Has it been discussed here already?

By the sounds of the quotes in the video no discussion is wanted.

If any still think there's only one kind of feminist, well, good for you.

Seriously Neg, just fuck off and let people talk. You're either being wilfully obtuse because you think it's funny, or you're just too stupid to enter into an actual discussion. Stop wasting your time pretending you care or are interested in this subject and go back to playing your shit games and watching worthless, hateful crap on YouTube.

[ZOK]

Yes, I watched that Reggie Yates doc. It's a good doc, very light as you would imagine, Roosh and Milo come across as dicks, as you would imagine.

I think for me, the thing it highlights is that the Internet is the medium by which people with dumb regressive views are able to find fraternity and validation. Not any news in that, and really, what are you going to do? The Internet has many positives, it will also have many negatives.

EDIT: One thing that I thought was a missed opportunity for them was to talk more about Men Going Their Own Way, which I don't know much about but I think is guys wanting to seperate themselves from women entirely, rather than Roosh's hating women but wanting to fuck them schtick. RY tried to interview representatives of their movement and got nowhere, but he didn't really explain what they were about either.

I suppose I should read up about it myself, really.