Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Unofficial Who]

There's some discussion (NSFW) here http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2015/12/14/from-japan-with-changes-the-endless-debate-over-video-game-censorshipabout localisation. And yeah. some of it is NSFW.

An interesting point bought up about changes due to cultural sensibilities

This is all not a one-way street, either. In Japan, there are concerns over violence and cultural taboos. Later Resident Evil games had decapitations and other gore removed. A Fallout 3 quest where players could defuse or detonate an atomic bomb was changed so players couldn’t detonate it. There’s no way to come up with a set of rules applicable to every game and every localisation.

[Professor Puzzles]

Apparently The Force Awakens passes the Bechdel test.

[Rev]

Apparently The Force Awakens passes the Bechdel test.

Um...It already had in the trailer.

[Festoon]

Yea I remember the time Violet Berlin and Lucy Longhurst were hounded out of the industry for daring to present gaming information to the males.

Also, the term 'tone policing' has been uttered, which is the klaxxon which signals my time in this discussion is at an end. Thanks to the people who engaged, I'm moving on to a happy place, where I ignore feminists* and gamergaters alike.

(*excluding the one I live with)

"Wait, I have heard a phrase I don't like. I'm out"

[Jarik]

Something I thought was interesting in the Tropes Videos was when Anita suggested a game that was a subversion of the Damsel in Distress/Kidnapped Princess Trope, when the Princess is kidnapped & imprisoned & dutifully waits for rescue, but when none is forthcoming, she rescues herself & discovers that it was all a plot by her corrupt council & she is then the one who must save her own kingdom. It reminded me of the 'Wilful Princess' character that Disney has used on occasion. I guess Mulan is the best example, but then there's also Merida from Brave & a variety of others that (to a greater or lesser degree) try to take control of their own circumstances, but are usually rescued in some way anyways. Then there's that scene in Shrek 3 where the Princesses are kidnapped, & (like the character in Anita's example) sit down to await rescue, but then are galvanized into doing something about the bad guys themselves.

I don't think we'd really had that in games. I still remember that one scene at the beginning of Zelda: Spirit Tracks when Spirit Zelda tells Link that he needs to go on the adventure & she'll wait because it's tradition, but when the Lokomo suggests that she accompanies him she acts confused & surprised at the very idea, before warming to it. Then There's Linkle in Hyrule Warriors. It probably won't turn out this way in the actual game, but her initial trailers make it look like she's going on her own adventure & her father/brothers/whatever react with surprise at the very idea, but she's determined. It made me think of what a massive shakeup it would be if a Zelda game actually had something like this as it's main plot:

Hyrule is in trouble again, only this time, Link (or some other hero) is recognized as the Legendary Hero by the population of Hyrule right at the start (like he was in Hyrule Warriors). Accordingly, he's given all the support & equipment he needs & the population waves him off on his quest, confident that everything will now be fine as the Legendary Hero is on the case. Time passes, the evil grows & there's no sign of the Hero doing anything about it. The Townsfolk still cling to the belief that everything will be fine, the Hero will save them...but Linkle isn't buying it. She decides to gear up & go on a quest of her own, ignoring the protests & perhaps even resistance of those around her as she heads off to find out what's gone wrong, & the game is then her adventure as we find out... that she is the bearer of the Triforce of Courage, not the one who everyone thought it was.

That's a game i'd quite like to play, even though I very much doubt that Nintendo will do it.

[PaB]

Apparently The Force Awakens passes the Bechdel test.

Completely couldn't give a fuck either way. Just so long as JJ hasn't knackered it.

[LaParka]

With the favourite colours. My oldest likes blue and detests anything pink because it's too 'girly'

I think it's just going to take a few generations to not give a toss about stuff like girls/boys toys. Same with sexual preference.

Oldest told me the other day that she's going to marry a girl because 'you can do that now' as a friend at school has two mums. Didn't bat an eyelid and the girl at school doesn't get teased because it's just the new normal. We've got gay friends and always made a point of saying that they are in love with their partners not just 'friends' so we don't have to have the talk. If she has kids it's going to, hopefully, be even more normal that it's not even a point of discussion, it just is.

[Sprite Machine]

It made me think of what a massive shakeup it would be if a Zelda game actually had something like this as it's main plot:

Hyrule is in trouble again, only this time, Link (or some other hero) is recognized as the Legendary Hero by the population of Hyrule right at the start (like he was in Hyrule Warriors). Accordingly, he's given all the support & equipment he needs & the population waves him off on his quest, confident that everything will now be fine as the Legendary Hero is on the case. Time passes, the evil grows & there's no sign of the Hero doing anything about it. The Townsfolk still cling to the belief that everything will be fine, the Hero will save them...but Linkle isn't buying it. She decides to gear up & go on a quest of her own, ignoring the protests & perhaps even resistance of those around her as she heads off to find out what's gone wrong, & the game is then her adventure as we find out... that she is the bearer of the Triforce of Courage, not the one who everyone thought it was.

That's a game i'd quite like to play, even though I very much doubt that Nintendo will do it.

They could just make "Link" female. No explanation needed. (It's not like it's the same person in each game.)

[Dudley]

They could just make "Link" female. No explanation needed. (It's not like it's the same person in each game.)

Wait what?

[crisy]

I also wanted to add something. Please believe people. Believe what they tell you happens to them and how it makes them feel. Don't write it off as untrue because it doesn't match your experiences.

It keeps happening in this thread "well she says this but I don't see how that can be true" You don't have to understand it, you don't have to like it, just believe that it's true, at least from their perspective.

Until you do that, you have been ignoring feminists all along.

Relatedly, I keep reading articles and posts that say "but is this really what women want?" or guessing at what that might be. Women have been writing about what they want for a long long time, there is no need to guess, just listen and _believe us_

This is a good post. I do regret bringing that old chestnut up when I questioned earlier "for how many women Quiet's design is a problem". Not my finest hour (that's the homeopathy thread).

[Rev]

I think it's just going to take a few generations to not give a toss about stuff like girls/boys toys.

It only took a generation for the pink/blue to take hold really, it can go again in the same time.

Completely couldn't give a fuck either way. Just so long as JJ hasn't knackered it.

Keep us updated, Voice Of Feminism.

[NEG]

I also wanted to add something. Please believe people. Believe what they tell you happens to them and how it makes them feel. Don't write it off as untrue because it doesn't match your experiences.

It keeps happening in this thread "well she says this but I don't see how that can be true" You don't have to understand it, you don't have to like it, just believe that it's true, at least from their perspective.

Until you do that, you have been ignoring feminists all along.

Relatedly, I keep reading articles and posts that say "but is this really what women want?" or guessing at what that might be. Women have been writing about what they want for a long long time, there is no need to guess, just listen and _believe us_

The same rule of thumb works both ways, just because I may not understand some female things (or at least not automatically), doesn't mean male understanding (to the best of either genders ability) should be taken harshly either.

[ZOK]

I was just in the doctor's, and there was a mum with her little boy, and he was wearing a superman costume with a princess crown, and had a fairy wand. In your face, gender stereotyping!

[PaB]

Keep us updated, Voice Of Feminism.

Its a ridiculous obvservation. It's like asking if Django Unchained passes the Bechdel test ( it doesn't). Because not every film has to pass the Bechdel test, not every film * should* pass the bechdel test, or any gender/race/age/sexuality related equivalent.

In any event. The fact that an entire film can pass some arbitary test, based on a 1 min 30 trailer, goes to show what total waste of time that test is. 30 seconds of two women talkig about some thing other than men, and the rest could be the worse kind of exploitative misogynist shite and it would pass. The Bechdel test is utterly meaningless. It's typical box ticking that is so prevalent in today's society. Indeed such tests can actually be harmful to any form of measured improvement of the depiction of women in film.

So yeah, couldn't give a fuck if Star Wars passes the bechdel test, and if you do care, you should ask yourself why.

[Jarik]

They could just make "Link" female. No explanation needed. (It's not like it's the same person in each game.)

They could, if they didn't want to address in any way attitudes towards Female Protagonists as it's 'Social Commentary'.

But isn't that exactly what Nintendo did in Tomodatchi Life on the 3DS? They avoided putting Homosexual Relationships in the game, & it was the very lack of such a thing that was deemed as the Social Commentary? Similarly, if Link is female in the next Zelda & nobody in Hyrule treats her any different, is that a good thing in the name of equality, or will it feel a little 'off' in the medieval-fantasy setting of the series, where a girl/women taking on such a role is much more of an exception rather than a rule, & it should get some kind of a reaction from the people around, like in that Linkle video for Hyrule Warriors.

In Mario 3D World I was kind of hoping that Bowser would have had some kind of reaction when I went up against him as Peach. He didn't of course, but it's the kind of thing I would expect more in an adventure or RPG anyways. In the next Paper Mario on 3DS for instance, we've already seen from the trailers that the Bowser's kidnap the Peach's (Like they always do) but there's a scene where at least Paper Peach is seen escaping. I hope this points to some kind of subversion of the trope in the game, as it is honestly getting very tired.

[ZOK]

The thing with the Bechdel test is it is not designed to 'mean' anything beyond a simple measure, that becomes a point of reference.

How you use that measure is what's important, and the test itself is used in different was by different people. Is it significant that one film passes the Bechedel test or not? No. Is it significant that most films don't pass the Bechdel test? Yes.

Trying to say it doesn't matter is silly. It's a tool, and it provides a useful measure against which things can be judged, if one wants to understand things in a wide context.

[John0]

(edit: @PeteBrant)

The merits and value of the test has been discussed quite a lot in the last few pages. Seems pretty obnoxious to wade into the thread to disparagingly dismiss someone's small observation. How important was it really for us all to know how little you give a fuck (twice)?

[PaB]

The thing with the Bechdel test is it is not designed to 'mean' anything beyond a simple measure, that becomes a point of reference.

How you use that measure is what's important, and the test itself is used in different was by different people. Is it significant that one film passes the Bechedel test or not? No. Is it significant that most films don't pass the Bechdel test? Yes.

Trying to say it doesn't matter is silly. It's a tool, and it provides a useful measure against which things can be judged, if one wants to understand things in a wide context.

I am of the opinion,that if most of your tests result in failures over an extended period of time, then your test criteria is wrong. It is only significant that most films fail the test, if the test is actually meaningful. The Bechdel test isn't. As evidence by the fact a 2.5 hour film can pass it based on a 1 minutes 30 trailer.

A test is only useful if it actually tells you something. The Bechdel test tells you precisely fuck all. It is not, nor has it ever been, fit for purpose. It is a test for idiots.

Sex In the City 2 passes it for fucks fucking sake.

[Delargey]

It shows that he's missed the point of the test as well. The problem isn't with a specific movies not passing the test, but with the vast majority of films that can't pass the extremely low bar the test represents.

It shows the trend that women are under represented in films.

[PaB]

. How important was it really for us all to know how little you give a fuck (twice)?

No more or less than it was to know anyone elses opinion on the issue, probably.

[PaB]

It shows the trend that women are under represented in films.

58% of films pass the test, according to wiki, so women aren't underepresented at all. The majority of film pass. Hooray.

Of course the test itself is utter dogshit.

Ask yourself this: Should a pass be attainable based on a 1 min 30 second slice from a 2.5 hour film. If your answer is "yes", please show workings.

[John0]

No more or less than it was to know anyone elses opinion on the issue, probably.

"I don't give a fuck, as long as the film is good" isn't really an opinion is it. At least, it's not really on topic in this thread.

I do see what you're saying in regards to applying the test to individual films as they're released though.

[NEG]

Not sure what's happened for sure but this seems fitting for the thread, appeared on my EVE Online feed, German voice over of Aura ("Skill training completed!" lady) quits:

https://www.facebook.com/naburi.nasnaburi/posts/703925576373643?fref=nf

Naburi NasNaburi

6 hrs ·

As of today I have stepped back from redoing the German Aura Voice Over.
I am no longer willing to pay the price that comes with it. I am sick and tired of daily bashes, insults, harrassment and threats towards me, my husband and even my kids. NO one has the right to tell me: for the good of this community I should come to your house and kick in your skull, no one has the right to tell me that I should be throatfucked in order to sound good. No one has the right to tell me that they could fuck me and my daughters cause they are just soo good.
Last but not least:
I once was proud to be offered this Job - as I am a proud EVE nerd.
Now.... I am just sad.

o7

[PaB]

"I don't give a fuck, as long as the film is good" isn't really an opinion is it. At least, it's not on topic in this thread.

I do see what you're saying in regards to applying the test to individual films as they're released though.

Apologies. It was a flippant response to the idea that the Bechdel test is in any way a measure to "the Force awakens" being positive, or negative towards female representation in film. I have gone in to more detail since.

[Sprite Machine]

The same rule of thumb works both ways, just because I may not understand some female things (or at least not automatically), doesn't mean male understanding (to the best of either genders ability) should be taken harshly either.

I'm not sure how that's the same thing at all. If the rule of thumb is simply "listen to people who have experienced things you haven't", then it follows that we should pay less attention to those who haven't experienced the things they're arguing against.

EDIT: That is to say, not necessarily "harshly" but viewpoints should be taken in the context they're provided.

They could, if they didn't want to address in any way attitudes towards Female Protagonists as it's 'Social Commentary'.

To be honest, I don't have a great deal of faith in Nintendo to deliver any worthwhile social commentary on gender issues. A blanket gender swap across all of their games would go a long way kicking the industry up the arse, though.

[Festoon]

Not sure what's happened for sure but this seems fitting for the thread, appeared on my EVE Online feed, German voice over of Aura ("Skill training completed!" lady) quits:

https://www.facebook.com/naburi.nasnaburi/posts/703925576373643?fref=nf

Just an everyday occurrence for visible women in games.

[Dig Dug]

Wait what?

That just reminded me of one of my favourite things about Wind Waker. So in the Zelda universe the various Links are supposedly all reincarnations of the Hero of Time's spirit or something along those lines, which is why you have games like Hyrule Warriors and Twilight Princess where the Link character had the triforce all along hidden inside him.

Then you have Toon Link from Wind Waker, Toon Link is not a reincarnation or some kind of destined hero. He is a regular kid who ends up getting dragged into a quest to save the world because he was unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Eventually his quest to rescue his sister escalates to the point where all the immortal beings are putting the fate of the world on his shoulders because the hero of time still hasn't reincarnated, so Toon Link has to travel the world restoring the de-powered master sword and putting together the broken pieces of the triforce so he can finally defeat Ganon and save the world.

I think in all this makes his feats more impressive than had he been someone born into one day being the savior of the world. It makes him a much more interesting character, and this is without going into the fact that Toon Link was designed to be more expressive and comical than other Links.

Which brings me to Linkle. I haven't been keeping up with the Hyrule Warriors 3DS stuff but by the sounds of things the character has some of these traits as well. I know the whole point of Link is that he is supposed to be a blank state that the player can project themselves onto but I think having a protagonist who is played up as the unlikely hero type does a lot for the narrative of a game like Zelda.

[NEG]

I'm not sure how that's the same thing at all. If the rule of thumb is simply "listen to people who have experienced things you haven't", then it follows that we should pay less attention to those who haven't experienced the things they're arguing against.

EDIT: That is to say, not necessarily "harshly" but viewpoints should be taken in the context they're provided.

When it's feelings and emotions that you think as a human you can relate with (and thus comment on), I'd say my point stands.

[Darren]

Ask yourself this: Should a pass be attainable based on a 1 min 30 second slice from a 2.5 hour film. If your answer is "yes", please show workings.

Go on then, I'll bite.

The answer is yes, if the purpose of the test is to set a deliberately very low bar and then see how relatively few films pass even that deliberately, trivially easy test. Yes, the new Star Wars trailer passes on its trailer alone. In fact it passes based on the first two lines of dialogue in the main trailer. Whoopee. But looking at that specific case alone tells us nothing about films in general, which is what the test is about.

If 58% of films pass this test, that doesn't mean we can therefore conclude that women aren't under-represented because the majority of films pass the test. What it's actually saying is, we set the bar ridiculously low, so low that Star Wars managed to clear it in the first 30 seconds of its trailer, and still 42% failed to clear it by the end of the entire film.

An equivalent test might be to say, how many children grow up in homes that don't contain a single book. All a home needs to do to pass this extremely easy test is have a single book somewhere in the house. If 58% of homes contain at least one book that doesn't mean there's nothing to worry about. It means that 42% of homes contain no more substantial reading material than the local takeaway menu.

[PaB]

Go on then, I'll bite.

The answer is yes, if the purpose of the test is to set a deliberately very low bar and then see how relatively few films pass even that deliberately, trivially easy test. Yes, the new Star Wars trailer passes on its trailer alone. In fact it passes based on the first two lines of dialogue in the main trailer. Whoopee. But looking at that specific case alone tells us nothing about films in general, which is what the test is about.

If 58% of films pass this test, that doesn't mean we can therefore conclude that women aren't under-represented because the majority of films pass the test. What it's actually saying is, we set the bar ridiculously low, and still 42% failed to clear it.

An equivalent test might be to say, how many children grow up in homes that don't contain a single book. All a home needs to do to pass this extremely easy test is have a single book somewhere in the house. If 58% of homes contain at least one book that doesn't mean there's nothing to worry about. It means that 42% of homes contain no more substantial reading material than the local takeaway menu.

Ah, but if, 90% of films passed, then it wouldn''t be a perceived as a problem, and everything is ok. Why? Because the Bechdel test is being held up as the defacto standard to pass.

Lets say 80% of film released next year pass the test. All of the sudden the pressure is off, everything is tickety boo. As we see now, with the Swedish Film Institute supporting cinemas giving a Bechdel pass or fail rating per film. Does it pass? You betcha! Does it depict women in a horribly misogynistic fashion? Yes Siree!

I'm not saying there is not a problem with the representation of women in film. I am saying that the Bechdel test is not any sort of measure that we should be using to try and makes things better. And that is what is happening. As the fact that it is mentioned in this very thread a positive shows "The new Star Wars film passes the bechdel test!"

Yesss!! Great!! Its ok!!!

We should not be measuring sometimes complex works against such arbitrary criteria. And it certainly does nothing or the advancement of the representation of women.