Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Mr Cochese]

We never did figure out whether Resident Evil 5 was a racism.

[Graham S]

This seems like a bit of an of unfair and lazy comment to be honest, Graham

Well, it was intended to be flippant and raise a chuckle, but I think it includes a modicum of truth.

If you're being irritated by someone, that's a response going on internally to you, rather than something objectively true. And when the two people in the last few pages that shrew decides to call out as irritating are geekette and Anita S, then there's at least a chance there's a reason for that. There are two ways of resolving it: either these women could modify the way they present their views to be more acceptable to shrew, or maybe he could learn to listen to them without feeling provoked.

I'm sure he's found me irritating too, so he's off the hook for sexism!

[Spacehost]

We never did figure out whether Resident Evil 5 was a racism.

Any game which makes fighting the third W. brother on the top of an active volcano boring is definitely something deplorable.

[Graham S]

I think the videos could have been less confrontational and critical and more about ways the industry can be changed to be more inclusive in a more positive message. Without existing industry guys involved in the discussion to subtley introduce these points, sadly Gamergate was probably unavoidable however you presented the tropes. And realistically, if you want to change something, the best way is to remake that thing the way you think it should be made, and show people how it's better.

Which is pretty unconvincing I admit, but it's certainly less abrasive than labelling a right and wrong opinion and then presenting a sneery, educational Sesame Street style mantra for the group you're criticising.

I don't disagree with most of this. If the same things were said by some "industry guys" that were already inside the club, and were men, and had a track record of making approved kinds of games, then there wouldn't have been the same response.

A woman, an unabashed feminist, a critic, from outside, who doesn't fit in and reassure us that we're all right really, but instead might be telling us off a bit for things she thinks are rubbish, is something different.

Where I disagree is that I don't think she should modify her presentation according to what certain gamers would find acceptable or mollifying.

For my enjoyment, the videos could assume more knowledge on the part of the viewer, or be less formal in presentation, but given the response and misunderstanding of quite simple points, perhaps they're pitched at the right level. I assume they're organised like they are (carefully walking through how women are used as achievements, as rewards, as easter eggs etc etc) so as to be comprehensive and useful to game makers and other critics, rather than to sneer or be a Sesame Street mantra or whatever you're reading into them.

[Dig Dug]

Play Asia are doing a special offer for DOAX3. Apparently you get $5.00 when you use the code SHAREJOYWEALTH. They are really playing GG with that code.

[minkee]

The bechdel test is a broad way to measure trends of representation in films. It does not say if a film is good, bad, sexist or any other subjective thing. It's simply a useful tool.

[Graham S]

I'm moving on to a happy place, where I ignore feminists*

(*excluding the one I live with)

This reads to me as "How dare you! I can't be even a little bit sexist, one of my best housemates* is a feminist".

*girlfriend/partner/wife/mum/delete as applicable

[Scribblor]

Noticed this on BBC today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34968467

This is what I was talking about before. Dumping a link isn't discussing something, NEG.

What do you think about that story? Do you have an opinion? Do you have questions about it? Is there a specific aspect of the story you want to discuss? Why did you post the link?

[deerokus]

Any game which makes fighting the third W. brother on the top of an active volcano boring is definitely something deplorable.

It's amazing how badly that game fucked up while being built on the bones of the greatest game ever made. And then they made the execrable RE 6 which got further away from what was good about 4.

[NEG]

This is what I was talking about before. Dumping a link isn't discussing something, NEG.

What do you think about that story? Do you have an opinion? Do you have questions about it? Is there a specific aspect of the story you want to discuss? Why did you post the link?

The text had clear smells of sexism whilst at the same time pointing out sexism in the toy and comic industry, which amused. Not all things need to be spelt out.

I really doubt girls Star Wars toys not selling 30 years ago is the excuse they used for the lack of Rey figures, especially when, going by the trailers she's very much main character. Very odd situation, because you'd think they (Disney/Lucas) want to print money, no matter the kind of plastic it is.

[NEG]

The bechdel test is a broad way to measure trends of representation in films. It does not say if a film is good, bad, sexist or any other subjective thing. It's simply a useful tool.

Is it? Something so specific can be argued that it isn't (useful )as it's not being put in any other context then one specific thing. I think it was said earlier but guy characters can be written just as bad.

It's like noting down, I dunno, all the movies that have an awful joke in them. They're certainly awful, but writing down a list of awful jokes doesn't sound very helpful to the problem of solving awful jokes. Nor does it factor in any other substance of the movie.

[Ersatz Nihilist]

It's like noting down, I dunno, all the movies that have an awful joke in them. They're certainly awful, but writing down a list of awful jokes doesn't sound very helpful to the problem of solving awful jokes. Nor does it factor in any other substance of the movie.

But it would be a good indication if you were trying to ascertain how many films contained awful jokes.

[Wiper]

Is it? Something so specific can be argued that it isn't (useful )as it's not being put in any other context then one specific thing. I think it was said earlier but guy characters can be written just as bad.

It's like noting down, I dunno, all the movies that have an awful joke in them. They're certainly awful, but writing down a list of awful jokes doesn't sound very helpful to the problem of solving awful jokes. Nor does it factor in any other substance of the movie.

But that's just it, it's purely to demonstrate how few films feature women as anything other than peripheral characters to male characters. It doesn't guarantee that anything that passes the test is 'good', nor that anything which fails it is 'bad', it's just an off-hand way to make people think about how frequently films feature female characters who only exist as props or lenses through which to view male characters. Its origins are worth knowing too: it wasn't created as some serious, scholarly rule to be used in deep analysis, it was just a rule briefly mentioned by a character in a comic as a way they chose what to see at the cinema. It just happened to be the case that enough people read that panel and thought, "you know what, that's an interesting rule" and decided to actually use it for fun, and with wider use (particularly as the internet spread it further) it gradually entered wider recognition and usage as a shorthand demonstration of the way female characters in film are often little more than throwaway characters.

(An inverted Bechdel test - i.e. one looking for male characters who interact with other male characters and talk about things other than the female characters - would actually be quite interesting, particularly if one were to then use both tests in concert to see the relative percentages of films passing each test)

[DukeOfEarlsfield]

Before I get into this, can I just ask why you feel the need to be so antagonistic. If you're being kind...? Do you listen to yourself?

Anyway, the Bechdel Test:

1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it.

2. Who talk to each other

3 About something other than a man

If I've misunderstood what Geekette was getting at by linking this test to Sexism in the film industry, then I apologise. If such is the case, then please, enlighten me. Remember, this was the only thing I brought up, and was in direct reference to Geekette's original assertion.

I was going to make a post regarding this but I see minkee and Wiper have already stated it better than I can. It's a thought experiment. Nothing more, it doesn't mean anything on it's own. Your original point implied, to me at least, you thought it was an actual test.

[DukeOfEarlsfield]

Yeah reading back the last few pages this DukeofEarl guy is a perfect example of the kind of superior, looking down through their noses, arrogant attitude that some people in this thread have a habbit of displaying in their posts. It's a real shame, because this thread has a lot of good content, but this attitude really lowers the tone of it and makes me want to visit it a lot less. I don't understand why some people find it so hard to be civil and respectful of people who have different opinions to them.

This seems like a bit of an of unfair and lazy comment to be honest, Graham

Fair enough, you're the second person to make that point so I'll tone it down. It was supposed to be blunt and a little combative but maybe was a bit strong.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Graham_S' comment though. Nothing wrong with a bit of snark.

[Dudley]

The key with the Bechdel for me is not to think about it being about any movie, it's about "So few movies even pass this, wouldn't it be nice if there were more that did".

[NoVisAnima]

Exactly the Bechdel test isn't about any individual movie but is about the industry as a whole. You could use it to look at a year's movies and compare it to another year to see if things are getting better for female representation in movies. You can look at the highest rated movies and see how they as a collection pass or fail. Rather than seeing it as a good or bad film thing, think of it more as a this film goes in this column and this other film goes in the other column. At the end of the year or season you could look at the balance between the two columns.

I think one way to think Anita's points is that there are sexist tropes but it would be great if there were more games where there weren't sexist tropes. If the gaming trope test was more balanced. You can have damsels in distress, but it shouldn't be in most games, or the trope could be subverted.

[LaParka]

Having two daughters has really opened my eyes up to how women are presented. Daft example, I bought an xmen/marvel board game after they met rogue and storm in universal theme park. The two characters are on the box, but all of the playable characters were male, so they weren't interested in playing.

A friend in work has a daughter who is five and loves spiderman. Won't go out the house unless she's dressed up as him etc. She's trying to get her to tone it down as it is boys toys, and I'm finding that ridiculous. They are trying to come up with ways to make her play with 'girls' toys instead.

Once you start looking at it from another perspective, it is pretty jarring. Watched both nfl and college football games this weekend. Every commentary set up was two men commentating and female side line commentator who interjected with fluff stories.

There was a female commentator during the end of the baseball season and she was pretty decent, read the comments and you'd think the apocalypse was coming.

[Delargey]

You should give your friends Spider-Gwen and Ms Marvel for thier daughter.

Not because they have female leads but because they are excellent.

[Rev]

Having two daughters has really opened my eyes up to how women are presented. Daft example, I bought an xmen/marvel board game after they met rogue and storm in universal theme park. The two characters are on the box, but all of the playable characters were male, so they weren't interested in playing.

A friend in work has a daughter who is five and loves spiderman. Won't go out the house unless she's dressed up as him etc. She's trying to get her to tone it down as it is boys toys, and I'm finding that ridiculous. They are trying to come up with ways to make her play with 'girls' toys instead.

Once you start looking at it from another perspective, it is pretty jarring. Watched both nfl and college football games this weekend. Every commentary set up was two men commentating and female side line commentator who interjected with fluff stories.

There was a female commentator during the end of the baseball season and she was pretty decent, read the comments and you'd think the apocalypse was coming.

It's definitely getting better for younger kids. My girlfriend's daughter is into Peppa Pig (a bit pink, beyond the obvious, but pretty good), Ben and Holly (good) and Paw Patrol (sort of good, it's clearly slightly more aimed at boys as 5/6 puppies are male but...They're puppies. Not exactly the most macho thing. And they introduced a second female pup later). That's not bad at all.

The next age range is a bit worse, it seems. Things get rapidly pink or LASERZ.

[Scribblor]

When we went to the spy museum in Washington, my son wanted a spy kit from the shop. We got it back to the hotel and opened it up, and the book that came with it had a massive "boys' stuff" sign on it. My daughter got upset because she didn't understand why she couldn't be a spy simply because she isn't male.

Even at five, she's being told she can't do stuff because of her gender. It's awful.

[Benny]

That's really disappointing. In a similar vein, the Yorkie bar "it's not for girls" shtick has always pissed me off.

[deerokus]

Yeah I try to buy gender-neutral presents at birthdays and christmas for my goddaughter out of principle. It's better than when I was a kid for sure but still more difficult than it should be. Even Lego are bad for it at times, and I remember clearly when I was a kid they weren't for boys or girls, just kids. Seems that, like everything else involving that prodict, it went a little bit downhill when they went all-in on the prescriptive licenced sets.

[minkee]

For all the fathers of little girls, I can highly recommend this site for finding good books and films and toys for growing young girls. http://www.amightygirl.com/

[minkee]

I also wanted to add something. Please believe people. Believe what they tell you happens to them and how it makes them feel. Don't write it off as untrue because it doesn't match your experiences.

It keeps happening in this thread "well she says this but I don't see how that can be true" You don't have to understand it, you don't have to like it, just believe that it's true, at least from their perspective.

Until you do that, you have been ignoring feminists all along.

Relatedly, I keep reading articles and posts that say "but is this really what women want?" or guessing at what that might be. Women have been writing about what they want for a long long time, there is no need to guess, just listen and _believe us_

[robdood]

I also wanted to add something. Please believe people. Believe what they tell you happens to them and how it makes them feel. Don't write it off as untrue because it doesn't match your experiences.

It keeps happening in this thread "well she says this but I don't see how that can be true" You don't have to understand it, you don't have to like it, just believe that it's true, at least from their perspective.

Until you do that, you have been ignoring feminists all along.

This is also good advice for relationships / dealing with people in general I find. Getting my head around this saved my relationship & family tbh!

[Nobuo's Organ]

Even at five, she's being told she can't do stuff because of her gender. It's awful.

When my eldest was 5 or 6 Lego Batman was her favourite game and some boys at school teased her for wearing a Lego Batman T-shirt on a non-uniform day, saying it wasn't for girls.

Nobody's explicitly taught them to do that, but it's eye-opening to how prevalent this crap is in our society.

[Dudley]

Having two daughters has really opened my eyes up to how women are presented. Daft example, I bought an xmen/marvel board game after they met rogue and storm in universal theme park. The two characters are on the box, but all of the playable characters were male, so they weren't interested in playing.

Side note, same effect for women in motorsport, it'd be easy to do down how far the recently retired Susie Wolff did (or even how she ultimately got there) but I know first hand she's inspired women to take up motor racing.

That's really disappointing. In a similar vein, the Yorkie bar "it's not for girls" shtick has always pissed me off.

I let them off only because there was a Policeman on one of those reality shows who was clearly gay and his name was Yorkie.

So it became a thing in our house to always refer to him as "Yorkie. He's not for girls."

[robdood]

When my eldest was 5 or 6 Lego Batman was her favourite game and some boys at school teased her for wearing a Lego Batman T-shirt on a non-uniform day, saying it wasn't for girls.

Nobody's explicitly taught them to do that, but it's eye-opening to how prevalent this crap is in our society.

Yup - and happens the other way around too; at a kid's 3rd birthday the other week, I had to bite my tongue when somebody's mother-in=law was scoffing that her grandson (age 4) wanted to wear a princess crown.. What does she think is the worst that will happen?

My two year old's favourite colour is pink. When we were showing him Amazon's page of kiddy bike/scooter helmets he chose the most awesome hot pink one with a grin He looks amazing in it! I laugh when I wonder what other people think of him wearing it, but I'm sure it'll change once he's a bit older and other kiddies make fun of him All I can do is try and encourage to be strong/confident enough to make his own decisions!

Things are changing, it's just taking a while!

[Danster]

My daughters are into Minecraft and my youngest loves Ninjago (not quite as much as she loves My Little Pony - but then that has changed beyond all recognition of where it was when we were kids).