Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[palaver]

We should have understood the veiled threats secreted within those damned youtube videos. We should have understood what would happen when we failed to meet her demands.

Reddit was aflame with panicked threads. The FemiNazi Kriegsmarine were on the beaches, the landing boats disgorging a cargo of elite Emasculation Units that were now working their way from building to building, door to door.

I knew they were coming for me. As one of the few true Alpha males I was bound to be high on the list. The thunder of jackboots in the hall. A moment of silence. The door booms again and again. Finally the wood splinters and gives way, exploding into the room with such force that the fedora flies from my head and lands in my collection of life-size plastic skulls, scattering them across the floor.

They burst into the room. I recoil in horror, some of them aren't even wearing make-up.

They pin me down, the Commander towering over me. Pretty fit, I thought.

A leather glove whips across my cheek, "Pig! This is the last time you'll admit you like breasts!"

"It's only natural!" I stutter as the glove comes down again and again.

If only we had listened! If only we had admitted that Twilight was a bit creepy!

[RubberJohnny]

On an unrelated note, I just found this old thread from 2009, where the forum basically does a little pre-Gamergate tantrum because N'Gai Croal says this was a bit racist:

It's got everything - him not being "a real gamer" and therefore unfit to pass comment, the criticism = censorship canard, claims that the issues aren't real and the people are just ego-boosting. Honestly I wish I'd just posted that picture because debating people gets silly later on.

[Graham S]

I'm fond of the posts where RubberJohnny retells in apocalyptic language the Times When He Was Right About Something On The Forum And You People Just Didn't Understand And Shouted At Him But History Has Now Judged Him The Victor.

[PaB]

Man I bet that had some people frantically going through the thread to see what they had written and deleting/editing accordingly.

[DirkCrisis]

Valiant! There's a name I haven't heard in ages! There was a reason he left the forum but I can't remember what the crime was which resulted in his banishment.

[Graham S]

Valiant! There's a name I haven't heard in ages! There was a reason he left the forum but I can't remember what the crime was which resulted in his banishment.

He's an unusual person, and was acting very strangely / apparently irrationally about a Rllmuk AGM, so we didn't let him join the co-op. I don't think he was banned from the forum, maybe he left in a huff or maybe I've forgotten. There was some other old history of odd things too but I don't think that was directly connected with him leaving.

[matt0]

So yes we can all agree her videos have made developers think, and she is entitled to her viewpoint on feminism, but I don't think we should be collectively clamouring for self-flagellation at the idea we've objectified or underdeveloped some female videogame avatars and NPC's over the last 30 years.

Acknowledgement doesn't have to equal self-flagellation though.

My reaction to some of the Tropes videos (the one with the prostitute beating montage and the one with the insane clips from God Of War 3 and No More Heroes) wasn't me "being ashamed of my words and deeds". It was more along the lines of "Oh... yeah that's actually super fucking weird now I stop and think about it for a moment..."

[Alex W.]

Yeah, I don't see why anyone would go into some sort of shame spiral over the Feminist Frequency videos.

[smac]

Unless that's just a misrepresentation of what we're actually saying.

[RubberJohnny]

Yeah I don't get the self-flagellation stuff, seems to be reading criticism as a personal attack? Except you're not even the creator, but a consumer of the thing that's being criticised? And you write criticism about every game because we're on a videogame forum?

Not sure what the line of logic is there.

[NEG]

Does Sonic Adventure pass the Bachdel Test?

[Alex W.]

It sounds like you're taking issue with your own reaction to the contents of the videos at this point TBH.

[RubberJohnny]

Yeah it's a downer, but that's on the industry to do better and for us to protest misogyny when it rears it's head in the industry (like the 40,000 strong internet army that harassed a bunch of women out of development).

Don't shoot the messenger, in short.

[matt0]

But it is kind of a downer, isn't it?

The biggest eye-opener for me was the female as character trait stuff. Whereby a male character has many different types and vocations, "female" was treated as one of these. That stuff is everywhere, and I have been guilty of it without realising. It is important that stuff is pointed out. But I can still take issue with Sarkeesian's approach.

How do you think it should have been pointed out?

[John0]

I watched that "The Right Reasons Why Guys Should Hate Twilight" posted a couple of pages back, and I do see where Shrew is coming from a little on that one, at least.

It's very "right" and "wrong" and it's very "here's what you should think". It treats "guys" as somewhat of a single entity. And the "repeat after me" bit at the end is pretty patronising, isn't it?

I haven't watched really very many of the FF videos though, so I can't comment on whether this is a trend that runs through the video games stuff as well.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

I struggle to conceive of the Tropes videos as confrontational. They're as soft-balled as it's possible for criticism to be, for the most part.

[RubberJohnny]

Saying "a hate mob going for a war on women based on a lie" was probably unavoidable seems utterly fucked, and is the most negative thing posted in this thread or across any of the videos, because you're in essence saying "well the industry is full of hateful misogynists who read criticism as a personal attack, but never for criticism of topics weapon handling or level design, only when it mentions women, because of the misogyny thing".

I'd like to think millions of people aren't idiots and can see that criticism isn't censorship, see that the casus belli for GG was based on a lie, basically be logical and capable of critical thinking. We've just got 40,000 imbeciles and bigots that managed to do a disproportionate amount of harm.

[Graham S]

Should have had a male presenter. Far less likely to be judged as irritating, opinionated and sneery.

[squirtle]

Really?

Because that looks like you think that's the point of the 'test'. Or, if I'm being kind, you think you're discussing this with people who think it's the point of the test. Neither of which are the case.

Before I get into this, can I just ask why you feel the need to be so antagonistic. If you're being kind...? Do you listen to yourself?

Anyway, the Bechdel Test:

1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it.

2. Who talk to each other

3 About something other than a man

If I've misunderstood what Geekette was getting at by linking this test to Sexism in the film industry, then I apologise. If such is the case, then please, enlighten me. Remember, this was the only thing I brought up, and was in direct reference to Geekette's original assertion.

[RubberJohnny]

The Tropes videos are much more formal and less overtly confrontational, but there is a similar tone. I was told this was just my misunderstanding of the videos, but it's pretty clear from the Twilight one.

So people in the game industry felt attacked because they watched old videos that had nothing to do with gaming?

I think you're blaming the victim here, maybe realise it's nothing to do with them and the attackers would attack them anyway because they're the problem? Like most of them haven't actually seen the videos.

[Spacehost]

sadly Gamergate was probably unavoidable however you presented the tropes

For the billionth time: Gamergate is an extraordinarily lazy and transparently fake cover story brewed up by a bunch of unapologetically misogynistic shitheels to retroactively justify them being a bunch of gullible idiots who leapt to attack someone based on her ex-boyfriend's deliberate attempt to destroy her career and personal life. It was neither inevitable nor a response to the TvW videos and to suggest otherwise makes as much sense as claiming the moon landings must have been faked because the Earth is flat.

[Graham S]

When I look at the videos, I'd say they're almost designed to strip away anything likely to rile someone or be taken out of context to be attacked, they're flatly presented in neutral tones, almost like a newsreader, to give the minimal target area. And then she allows herself a cheeky raised eyebrow from time to time. "And finally... on Feminist Frequency tonight, get a load of this "urban ninja" outfit."

[RubberJohnny]

The backlash. THE BACKLASH. I have lazily referred to it as Gamergate as many people in this thread have.

If it's about Anita's methods, why did no other form of media that she covered have this reaction of creating a 40,000 strong hate campaign?

I think it's probably because it's a problem with gamers and the industry and not her, and you should stop victim blaming.

[Spacehost]

The backlash. THE BACKLASH. I have lazily referred to it as Gamergate as many people in this thread have.

Then stop being lazy.

[matt0]

When I look at the videos, I'd say they're almost designed to strip away anything likely to rile someone or be taken out of context to be attacked, they're flatly presented in neutral tones, almost like a newsreader, to give the minimal target area. And then she allows herself a cheeky raised eyebrow from time to time. "And finally... on Feminist Frequency tonight, get a load of this "urban ninja" outfit."

There was some shameful editorializing about the Bionic Commando reboot where the Bionic Commandos bionic arm turns out to somehow be his dead wife.

It was wrong to criticise this as it was what the writer wanted to do and you should never stop a creative person doing what they want to do by laughing in pure exasperation at the stupid thing they just did.

[Graham S]

Yes Graham because I'm literally that fucking stupid I am completely blind to those facets in a man, and wouldn't find it at all annoying if a male made the same patronising video. Women should be in the kitchen or bedroom, not on my Youtube. Spot on analysis. In no way could it be possible that Anita Sarkeesian is both a woman, a feminist and irritating, opinionated and sneery. It's impossible for those traits to co-exist with a vagina and a webcam!

Maybe it plays no role in your personal responses, only you could reflect on that and be sure, but I genuinely believe that women in these sort of roles get way more tone policing than men, of specifically that type (irritating, opinionated, or perhaps they get simple issues in their area of expertise painstakingly explained to them, like that guy on twitter who was asking the Pope if he'd even read the Bible). Men do not like women talking to them in certain ways, and you can see it in the way they interact with them on social media all the time. I bet you could easily prove it with a study.

[Dig Dug]

I think any confrontational tone of the tropes videos comes from the footage of the games themselves. There is an assertiveness to how the videos present examples (which is pretty 'this is the problem and here is an example') and I think that is one of the things people react badly to, because they don't like the confrontation, at least not when they feel like it is being brought on them. When people are confronted assertively about something that is problematic they can get defensive. It's the cognitive dissonance coming into play, the videos are never criticising people who enjoy these games but for whatever reason they get upset. I think it is a product of fan culture taken to a damaging extreme where people take the criticism personally because they are so entwined in a medium or piece of media (I see this a lot both online and in real life).

This isn't exactly anything new, even the N'Gai Coral thread shows people can fall into this trap. It's almost something we have to train ourselves to not do at times. I didn't like the first tropes video when it came out years ago and I argued against it, I think that was a lack of maturity and self-awareness on my part to not stop and think about what was actually being said. I fell into that trap also, I just jumped straight to the conclusion that she had it in for games, my favourite past time, the thing I dedicated more hours of my life to than any other media, it's almost idiotic in hindsight.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

jeezo

[RubberJohnny]

Oh my god you were so close, only to veer off in a really ugly direction where you claim it's actually the womens fault right at the end.

I am so frustrated with you right now.

[crisy]

Before I get into this, can I just ask why you feel the need to be so antagonistic. If you're being kind...? Do you listen to yourself?

Yeah reading back the last few pages this DukeofEarl guy is a perfect example of the kind of superior, looking down through their noses, arrogant attitude that some people in this thread have a habbit of displaying in their posts. It's a real shame, because this thread has a lot of good content, but this attitude really lowers the tone of it and makes me want to visit it a lot less. I don't understand why some people find it so hard to be civil and respectful of people who have different opinions to them.

Should have had a male presenter. Far less likely to be judged as irritating, opinionated and sneery.

This seems like a bit of an of unfair and lazy comment to be honest, Graham