Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Wiper]

(And yes, I'm aware that article hasn't a clue what 'Third Wave Feminism' actually is.

Something to do with women playing Wave Race, yeah?

[ZOK]

No-one has said anyone's voices aren't important.

NEG isn't 'concern-trolling', he's just (on the basis of today's exchanges) unable to think about things in a way most people would call logical. Eventually though, he'll get it...probably.

Stu is smart as you like, but in my view hugely misguided about what the aims of Fem Frequency and Tropes are - and I'm still waiting for his 'opposition' to the position he has ascribed to Anita Sarkeesian.

Then you have Jez, who is a very different case. I'm tempted to say his particular views aren't important, but as he is a mukker of long standing I kind of welcome his moronic views. For all that he's coughing up the worst kind of shite, he's one of us, and once he has dealt with the sadness that's causing his current malaise, he may see the error of his ways. At the very least he serves as a reminder that there are people out there who seem normal on the surface, but harbour such toxic bitterness that it completely warps their minds. It's easy to forget that people with those views are real human beings, so I welcome him here.

[Shoes]

You've been triggered again, mate.

[ZOK]

Oh bugger.

[Capwn]

Argh this stuff winds me up yet I can't quite get across what is so wrong about it. Something to do with it being her own body and the fact that she isn't representing one of the only major female roles in a videogame. Also that the person here isn't being displayed through someone elses eyes? Also that she is dressing up for fighting on the battlefield etc etc etc. I feel like there are a tonne of far more stupid aspects of comparisons such as this but I can't quite put my finger on it or articulate it. Can anyone else?

[Harsin]

Well the key point here is that she's a human being who chose to dress like that through her own agency whereas Quiet isn't a real person, she was designed by Hideo Kojima who decided exactly how she would look and dress and made a choice to have the camera linger on her jiggling polygon tits at every available opportunity.

[joeplus]

Just in case anyone apart from NEG is still on the "Anita makes some valid points but honestly we should listen to her critics" fence:

Harassment Through Impersonation: The Creation of a Cyber Mob

-After Satoru Iwata dies, arseholes fire up photoshop to create fake tweets in which Sarkeesian is rude and insensitive about his death
-Other arseholes see the picture, take it at face value, and launch the usual misogynist attacks
-Arseholes who made/shared the picture admit in a public forum that they don't care and just want to spread the libel
-Even the arseholes who find out it's fake call her a c*** because the fake tweets are "something she would say"
-The tweet linking to the above blog post, documenting all this, is still replied to aggressively by arseholes... just like the last detailed post about harrassment.

Gender politics, feminism, patriarchy, media representation: hugely complex and difficult issues that we've been talking about for hundreds of years, and we will need to continue talking about. Yes, discussion is important here.

Whether a feminist's considered critical viewpoint on a game is more valuable than that of people who have slandered, harassed, abused and threatened her: THIS IS REALLY EASY AND THERE IS A CORRECT ANSWER

(Edited for clarity)

[Wroth]

Christ that's depressing.

[Shoes]

I want NEG's thoughts on that Iwata article.

[NEG]

That it doesn't represent everyone that dislikes gender politics? Remarkable thinking, I know.

Edit: Horrible stuff, if it needed being said by me.

[Wiper]

Here's a thing - it's not really possible to 'dislike gender politics', any more than it's possible to 'dislike politics in games', inasmuch as they are unavoidable, ever-present abstracts. All media is a result of, and contains, politics, gender or otherwise. Sometimes they'll be politics you agree with, sometimes they'll be politics you disagree with, and frequently they'll be a mixture of agreeable and disagreeable politics that are difficult to pick apart.

I'm assuming that you actually mean you don't believe in the value or validity of the study or discussion of gender politics, particularly study or discussion which presents certain things as examples of regressive/damaging gender politics at work, and/or treats gender politics within media as something significant or important. Something I strongly disagree with (hell, I probably wouldn't have spent quite so long studying ancient literature if I didn't think you could extract political and social analysis from stories of heroism and tragedy, and how those things are represented), but can acknowledge as a viable perspective.

[matt0]

That it doesn't represent everyone that dislikes gender politics? Remarkable thinking, I know.

Edit: Horrible stuff, if it needed being said by me.

That's the only thing you took away from it?

[Mentazm]

Just to point out the reason Milo is against gay marriage is pretty much as far from a right wing agenda as you can get. He thinks gay folk should be into wild partying, fucking about and drug taking, not conforming to societies blueprints.

This information is not an endorsement BTW, can't stand the guy.

[NEG]

Here's a thing - it's not really possible to 'dislike gender politics', any more than it's possible to 'dislike politics in games', inasmuch as they are unavoidable, ever-present abstracts. All media is a result of, and contains, politics, gender or otherwise. Sometimes they'll be politics you agree with, sometimes they'll be politics you disagree with, and frequently they'll be a mixture of agreeable and disagreeable politics that are difficult to pick apart.

I'm assuming that you actually mean you don't believe in the value or validity of the study or discussion of gender politics, particularly study or discussion which presents certain things as examples of regressive/damaging gender politics at work, and/or treats gender politics within media as something significant or important. Something I strongly disagree with (hell, I probably wouldn't have spent quite so long studying ancient literature if I didn't think you could extract political and social analysis from stories of heroism and tragedy, and how those things are represented), but can acknowledge as a viable perspective.

I was phone typing and seemed swiftest to group under that banner when I looked at Joeplus' post. More appropriate would have been something like 'doesn't represent everyone speaking' or doesn't represent everyone critic'ing the subject/Anita and so on.

All politics is important. The worst of these people clearly don't like gender politics though.

That's the only thing you took away from it?

That it reduces my faith in humanity each time I hear/read something like this, as if every day news doesn't depress me enough?

It's certainly sad how many people like this there are on that page alone, unable to actually talk/think/research whatever they have a problem with, is. I assumed it a small group at best before.

Edit: Although, as I usually crystal ball predict and say, I would assume some are just kids and young teens that don't know any better. Or Nintendo fans that wouldn't think it's fake for example, of course.

Edit 2: Yes, the argument of if you'd tell someone to die even if you knew nothing about the subject baffles me too, sure.

[ZOK]

Just to point out the reason Milo is against gay marriage is pretty much as far from a right wing agenda as you can get. He thinks gay folk should be into wild partying, fucking about and drug taking, not conforming to societies blueprints.

This information is not an endorsement BTW, can't stand the guy.

I can see that as a reason why he, a gay man, might be against getting married.

What I don't see is why that would be a reason he is against gay marriage.

[rumblecat]

Not sure what the relevance of it is to anything anyway. So he doesn't have a right wing stance behind his viewpoint on gay marriage? Um. Okay. It's got nothing to do with writing such classic shock jock articles like Does Feminism Make Women Ugly? or Birth Control Makes Women Unattractive and Crazy or Ginger Jihadis : Why Redheads Are Attracted to Radical Islam.

I made up one of those titles. Can you guess which one?

They're all real

[Harsin]

Wait, are you telling me ISIS is full of Christina Hendricks types?

/books ticket to the Caliphate

[joeplus]

That it doesn't represent everyone that dislikes gender politics? Remarkable thinking, I know.

Edit: Horrible stuff, if it needed being said by me.

Those "horrible outliers who don't represent everyone", etc etc: they don't exist in a vacuum. Their behaviour is directly stoked and encouraged by popular figureheads - e.g., that Sargon of Akkad bloke who you linked. I mean, maybe he doesn't explicitly tell his viewers to go out and abuse people, but when your supporters love anonymity and constantly spew warlike rhetoric, you have to be aware you're encouraging that. Unless you're genuinely clueless, but I don't think for a second that Sargon, Milo, Thunderfoot, Sommers etc are daft. They're just far right-wing and incredibly cruel.

[Shoes]

It's certainly sad how many people like this there are on that page alone, unable to actually talk/think/research whatever they have a problem with, is. I assumed it a small group at best before.

[Guest]

I find it so hard not to say nasty things to NEG, I appreciate he's a living breathing person, someone who has reasons for his issues, but he's also an awful misogynist with no insight whatsoever to the extent that I don't see it improving. It makes me angry, but then it's not his fault, he's clearly ill.

[squirtle]

I'm not sure. I think Wiper said it best earlier. I don't think Neg has the critical discipline to articulate or understand the full discussion going on here. His views and expression have a GCSE level to them, in that it seems he just regurgitates what he's been told as fact, and can't see why that's wrong. Or maybe I'm wrong, and he's properly trolling the thread. I'm not sure...

[joeplus]

I'm not sure. I think Wiper said it best earlier. I don't think Neg has the critical discipline to articulate or understand the full discussion going on here. His views and expression have a GCSE level to them, in that it seems he just regurgitates what he's been told as fact, and can't see why that's wrong. Or maybe I'm wrong, and he's properly trolling the thread. I'm not sure...

I do think that's a bit off. If we're mocking people for stupid opinions, which we should, can we do it via criticism of shitty posts rather than assuming we know what grades someone got in particular exams? There is no shortage of awful, arse-headed stuff to mock, just have fun with it yeah

[squirtle]

I think you've misunderstood me. I wasn't mocking his grades or qualifications, just the level of critical debate Neg has been offering.

[Unofficial Who]

Can I ask that we refrain from doing a social deconstruction of NEG please? This line of "is he ill or just stupid" is incredibly creepy (as well as being a common line used by my least favourite right wingers.)

Going down this path is a failure to debate the issues, either engage with his arguements or ignore them. (And yes, I'm just as guilty for assuming he wasn't argueing in good faith.)

[NEG]

I don't like the idea of being stupid (though I'm sure I'm not the highest IQ there is either) used as an excuse for bad posting because I don't believe myself to be dense, but it's not trolling, that would be Sonic.

Some thoughts weren't expressed well, along with getting into the topic however many years late when everyone else knows the players on the chess board didn't help. Add my usual jokey attitude to that and it didn't help further

I've also been trying to think the better of some of the people that offer some form of cross opinion (hence putting them up for debate). It's not in my nature to outright hate straight away as they're living breathing people as well. Could call me soft for that.

I'd have to look up what misogynist means, mind. I'm not joking.

:: does so ::

No, not a woman hater. Sometimes the only thing I'd wish for is to be able to converse with certain girls passed through my life 'for just another day'. My best friend throughout my mid to late teens was a girl. Another girl during my primary school years before that, actually. Admired/respected many since. You'd really have to know me, Richie. I don't believe I've said anything hateful.

Edit: Oh, you called me ill as well? Fuck off

Now I'm reminded of lending out Sonic The Comic 100 to the primary's little sister and she tore it up.

PS. The average GG'er (if we really have to pack everyone under one term that I dislike) that wouldn't want to think or read deeper it really seems to come down to one thing for them from what I've seen: defending anime boobs in games. I've had friends that wouldn't play non-Japanese games as they lack that style. So some being blind to how the Japanese portray women isn't a lack of thinking I think, more so unwillingness to anything that may make them uncomfortable. Possibly grown distant from their own non-Japanese cultures.

I know the automatic response is 'no one is demanding censorship in games' but it isn't easy convincing (them, not me) when they're unable to see just how awkward (like the twitter pictures shown a page or two ago in the thread) the portrayals in Japan can really be. I don't think it's lack of critical thinking causing some of the thoughtless backlash/concern.

[Guest]

It may be semantical to discuss the difference between illness and a general lack of insight, but one is merely a subset of the other.

I don't attach a negative connotation to the word illness, perhaps syndrome would be better.

I consider this an open discussion and not an attack on NEG, not like him trolling the depression thread, I just can't relate to where he's coming from and his bubbling under the surface misogyny.

[squirtle]

Like Geekette, I'm not bullying him, nor calling him stupid. I just see a lack of cognitive, critical thought in his posts. I stated that may be the reason, also similarly stated by Geekette, that he just can't see the issue at hand.

[Guest]

I've tried to ensure that I phrased everything in a fairly neutral manner too NEG, I'm sure you've no idea how inflammatory some of the things you've said in this thread and others have been.

[NEG]

I've tried to ensure that I phrased everything in a fairly neutral manner too NEG, I'm sure you've no idea how inflammatory some of the things you've said in this thread and others have been.

Everything was fine besides the word misogyny. And sure, don't disagree with the latter.

PS. I didn't troll the depression thread.

[LeighCb]

You did troll the depression thread and you were banned for doing so.