Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[RubberJohnny]

Your argument was mobile games weren't inspiring people to enter the industry, but AAA games were, and the reasoning for this was their business model and tactics, I pointed out they both use these tactics so that's not it.

If encouraging you to keep playing to get more money out of you was anathema to people entering the industry, it wouldn't have survived past the arcade era. All this stuff has existed for decades before Facebook or mobile, where do you think they got the model from?

[The Bag]

Your argument was mobile games weren't inspiring people to enter the industry, but AAA games were, and the reasoning for this was their business model and tactic

That's a fair point, but I've never been arguing as black and white as that. I said most popular mobile games, not all mobile, and I certainly wouldn't argue all AAA games are inspiring.

And as I said above, I could be totally wrong about this. And I'm aware I'm projecting my own feelings about it, I play a game like Candy Crush and enjoy it, it's well made, but I'm not thinking "I'd love to work on a game like this". And just to be clear, I've no issue if they do inspire people to make games.

On the business model side, as I edited in as you were responding, it's more about the perception of games as a viable industry.

I pointed out they both use these tactics - MMOs kept you playing to part you with your money through subscriptions or (even further back in the day) per-minute charges, the modern games industry came from arcades which kept you playing to take your money, all this stuff has existed for decades before Facebook or mobile. Where do you think they got the model from?

No arguments here

Sorry, I did edit it once I realised.

As to whether phone games are inspiring - maybe the very fact that they are so poor in many cases will make some people think "I could make something better than that". There are at least two motivations that grab people into a particular line of work. It isn't just "I want to be part of that" there is also "that needs fixing/I could do better than that". You could argue that the latter is actually more influential as it brings in leaders rathe than followers.

Yeah, that's is one thought I had. And there certainly are many successful people in creative industries who have started off with that thought.

[RubberJohnny]

Given all the horror stories about the industry, I don't get AAA being inspiring. Being a production line worker on someone elses vision making footballers noses, doing death march crunch where you don't see your family for eight months, teams of 1,000 so you're barely making a dent in the finished product, dealing with lower than industry standard pay, no job security and bonuses designed by Metacritic isn't exactly my idea of a dream job, even though I love games.

I imagine working for Supercell or another mobile developer is a nicer place to aspire to work in - smaller teams, better pay, better working conditions, more significant contributions, more relaxed environment, better work/life balance. Still sucky job security, but you can't win em all.

[Scribblor]

Those horror stories, whilst all true, aren't the norm in my experience. There's overtime, but it's always been paid in the studios i've worked for, either in money or in TOIL. Those 1000 person studios are the exception, too. I've managed to have a tangible effect on every game I've worked on. It's not writing the story or designing the combat single handed or what have you, but there's always been a very definite sense that I'm contributing, and I can point to specific parts of games and say that I did that.

[RubberJohnny]

I'm exaggerating for effect - The Bag is inspired by AAA because he really likes AAA games and therefore they're the dream, I'm pointing out that people might have different values that matter to them and affect what is desirable for them to work on.

[Anne Summers]

I think anyone who wants to work in this industry should be able to. At the same time that 95% number bothers me, it's accurate but it includes everything. It's the same measuring things like the ESA use to say more people than ever play games - it includes people who play mobile games to kill time. Most of us working in the games industry can point to one or two pivotal experiences or games as the spark to why we want to make games. Some others because it was this exciting new frontier of interactive stroytelling (usually coupled with the first). I just don't see where that comes from in the extremely popular mobile games - these are free and disposable. I just don't see anyone playing Candy Crush or FarmVille or the Kim Kardashian game and saying this, this is what I want to devote my life to. So while more people are playing games I think fewer people are playing games which will inspire them to want to make games.

It's the younger ones I have hope for, those that grew up playing Minecraft. Things are going to get really interesting when they start making games.

Most of these so-called casual phone/Facebook games are about 50 times more complex and in-depth that a lot of the games I grew up playing on my Spectrum.

When you strip it down, it's hard to come up with a solid argument as to how Candy Crush is "less of a game" than Tetris.

[Scribblor]

Yeah, but you're saying that for your hypothetical person AAA isn't inspiring because of worst-case working conditions, whereas casual/mobile is inspiring because of best-case working conditions. I'm not sure it's a great comparison. I know of mobile studios with way worse working conditions than most AAA studios.

And in my experience, no-one at any games studio ever got into games because of the salaries or the working practices. It's something you get into because you love the medium, and that would be the same whether it's AAA or mobile.

[Wiper]

So, in summary, most are in agreement: people are inspired to make games (of some sort) because they fall in love with games (of some sort), so whether girls predominantly enjoy mobile games or not doesn't really have any bearing on their presence (or lack thereof) in the game-making industry, and rather just suggests that were they to enter the industry they'd be most likely to do so making mobile games, as those are the games they like. All of which means that the relative lack of women in the industry might have some cause other than simply "they like the wrong type of games".

There's been a lot of arguing in circles, but I'm pretty sure that's the main argument that's been being put forward from a variety of positions.

[The Bag]

I'm exaggerating to prove a point - The Bag is inspired by AAA because he really likes AAA games and therefore they're the dream

I was inspired by the games I'm played in the '80s and early '90s to make games. I worked in AAA for 8 years and have spent the last few working on indie games and mobile games, leaving AAA because so little of it is doing anything interesting or inspiring. My dream was never AAA but interesting games, growing up with British home computers exposed me to many interesting concepts that disappeared as things became bigger budget - the rise of mobile and the rebirth of indies gave a space to such things again, which is specifically why I said the most popular mobile games because there's certainly a lot of interesting stuff happening there.

It's never been my argument that AAA is inspiring, I don't think anyone finds a particular section of the industry inspiring, I think people find particular works inspiring no matter where they come from. You also seem to conflate my concerns about the popular mobile games as being flag waving for AAA, why's it not flag waving for indie games, or other parts of the mobile industry?

And as I've repeated I accept I could be wrong about people finding it inspiring, and different people will find different things inspiring.

And in my experience, no-one at any games studio ever got into games because of the salaries or the working practices. It's something you get into because you love the medium, and that would be the same whether it's AAA or mobile.

Yes, this.

Edit - yeah, sorry Wiper was typing that waiting to go into the physio's didn't see it until I came out just now. Also my thought wasn't to do specifically with girls, although it was that stat that initiated it.

[Scribblor]

It was magical when my daughter and I were playing a game and I was able to say "I made this bit". She looked at me like I was some sort of god. Best reaction I've ever had.

[Unofficial Who]

This link contains Batman spoilers...click at your own rick.

http://carolynpetit.tumblr.com/post/122456514110/based-batman

Short version. There's a Gamergate joke hidden in Arkham Knight. It's vague enough to keep everyone happy. Or unhappy.

[PK]

Is that analysis of the joke written by a robot?

[earlymodernsteve]

It was magical when my daughter and I were playing a game and I was able to say "I made this bit". She looked at me like I was some sort of god. Best reaction I've ever had.

What game was this? I had a similar non-gaming experience when I showed my daughter my first publication in an academic book. It was the first time she saw my doctorate as something real and started to ask how I got it

[K]

That easter egg is pretty clearly a dig at Gamergate. I mean, it flat-out calls them "idiotic"; the Crusadergate types are described as pro-Batman, but Batman is a white male fascist, so that's hardly surprising.

[MK-1601]

Is that analysis of the joke written by a robot?

"What would it even mean for this game to openly criticize GamerGate, while so thoroughly in its narrative and ideology being the kind of game that contributed to the culture that gave rise to GamerGate in the first place?"

A pillock, certainly. The 'culture that gave rise to GamerGate' has nothing to do with games, no matter how personally distasteful you find grimdark popcorn blockbusters.

To suggest otherwise plays into the witless GG fantasy that developers silently support them, rather than viewing them as so far beneath contempt that it's not worth getting shit on your shoe dealing with them publicly.

[RubberJohnny]

Yeah but as it mentions its inclusion is weird considering how terrible the Batman games are for women characters, like my literal first impression loading up Arkham City was watching the safe opening cutscene and then getting seven AI barks calling me a bitch back to back.

Lots of developers/industry sites wanting to be allies as long as they don't have to do anything.

[PK]

Is it not just meant to be a funny little bit where a supervillain thinks that raising an online army full of impotent anger is a viable way to defeat a superhero?

[K]

Especially in conjunction with the Riddler's other dastardly scheme, which is to take over Gotham by asking Batman to drive round an obstacle course within a particular time limit.

[Scribblor]

What game was this? I had a similar non-gaming experience when I showed my daughter my first publication in an academic book. It was the first time she saw my doctorate as something real and started to ask how I got it

Disney Infinity 2.0; the Avengers playset. I made a couple of the side missions. All the other games I've worked on are unsuitable for a five year old...

[The Bag]

Disney Infinity 2.0; the Avengers playset. I made a couple of the side missions. All the other games I've worked on are unsuitable for a five year old...

Nice I'm in the later position where my niece & nephew definitely aren't old enough to play the games I've worked on.

[Dudley]

Yeah but as it mentions its inclusion is weird considering how terrible the Batman games are for women characters, like my literal first impression loading up Arkham City was watching the safe opening cutscene and then getting seven AI barks calling me a bitch back to back..

To be fair, that's more the comic's fault than the Arkham games. Arkham Knight does a (first hour spoiler)

Very unsubtle slow pan up Poison Ivy

too for instance.

[Alex W.]

How is it the comics' fault? There are plenty of takes on Batman where nobody is running around in their pants being called a bitch. Heck, the cartoon that gave the games their voice cast is one of them.

[RubberJohnny]

There's no reason you need to keep everything from the original when doing an adaptation.

The Batman games have always been a tonal mess - they want 60s campiness (shark fighting QTEs) and 90s blood, tits and swearing excess and 00s seriousness and it doesn't gel at all.

[Alex W.]

I dunno, Arkham Asylum makes a decent go of it. It leans into the ridiculousness.

[Jarik]

I was interested to read that the reaction of some Gamergate types to that Arkham Knight tidbit was call it 'Good Natured' Humour from the 'Neutrals'.

I didn't think Gamergate supporters were capable of comprehending such things exist, at least when it came to criticism of them or their beliefs.

I would also imagine it's hard for them to fit a AAA Videogame or its developers into the usual pigeonholes of 'biased' or 'idiot' that they always try to put their critics into, & since admitting the the dig might actually have a valid point is something they don't want to see, they just brush it off as a joke.

[Anne Summers]

I had a look at r/KIA for the first time in ages today and was amused to see they've got a "Yay gay marriage is legal!" thread, which even the opening post admits is pretty much just there in a cunning attempt to confuse people who think Gamergate is homophobic.

Of course it doesn't quite work out though because you don't have to scroll to far down to see that some of them can't play along with a straight face whatsoever, and quite a few of them actually do have a problem with the idea of two guys being allowed to marry.

Most of those people though go to great lengths to express their problem while making it very clear it is not the idea of gays they dislike, but the idea of laws in general (I'm not homophobic! I'm libertarian!), even laws which are explicitly designed to create more freedoms in society, because they're still laws right? Therefore they're authoritarian!

[The Bag]

I was interested to read that the reaction of some Gamergate types to that Arkham Knight tidbit was call it 'Good Natured' Humour from the 'Neutrals'.

I didn't think Gamergate supporters were capable of comprehending such things exist, at least when it came to criticism of them or their beliefs.

I would also imagine it's hard for them to fit a AAA Videogame or its developers into the usual pigeonholes of 'biased' or 'idiot' that they always try to put their critics into, & since admitting the the dig might actually have a valid point is something they don't want to see, they just brush it off as a joke.

If they took a stance on it then they might have to boycott a game they want to play, rather than games they'd otherwise ignore.

[Nifta]

[Dig Dug]

I haven't played Fallout Shelter so someone will need to fill me in.

[Nifta]

You can grow your population in the shelter by men and women having babies together. (You can also attract new recruits from outside the shelter, by having a good shelter).

When one of your population is pregnant, they automatically run away from enemies and dangers that come near them, abandoning their work station if they are at work at the time. I guess that Bethesda thought that was a safer idea than allowing pregnant women to be killed in the game? Children in the game behave the same way, for the same reason I imagine.