Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[Fry Crayola]

I want to go back and play it. I've bought the bloody thing twice and still not got around to it. May have to just bump it up the list and get it done.

[Capwn]

A few hours in and STILL no video responses! Last video with anita tagged is this guy having a rant about her eyebrows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFBzdwOrZEU

[rumblecat]

You have to remember that the average response video to any Fem Freq video must be at least thirty minutes long, but preferably over an hour. So you need to take into account the length of time it takes to rant into the camera, plus the editing time to add in infographics if it's a particularly 'professional' video.

[Alex W.]

I played BGE for the first time last year; it's very 2003 but very agreeable. Hoovering up the collectables and secrets happens at a Nintendo-ish sort of pace.

Stealth can be a bit ropey though.

[crisy]

You seem to be unable to comprehend that you are still allowed to enjoy something and also be critical of it. No one is making you feel guilty for wanting to enjoy Metal Gear but you seem to be convinced that it is impossible to have it both ways, therefore you refuse to move on the position that there is nothing wrong with Quiet and that people are being oversensitive. I love the original metal gear solid, but I also think is it an incredibly sexist game and it deserves a lot of criticism it gets in that area.

You keep talking about a "line" between positives and negatives. That line does not exist, they blur, it is a grey area consisting of Kojima's creative freedom and the question of tasteful writing and art design.

And again stop thinking that people are complaining about a lack of female gaze, that has never been the objective and most western schools of feminism will straight up reject the female gaze as hard as they already disapprove of the male gaze. These games being a Japanese cultural product do not shield them from criticism, if criticising Kojima means criticising Japanese cultural concepts then so be it.

The female focused Japanese games you talk about are part of a problem in themselves, they are games being made with and defined by the gender bias behind their design, but that is a different topic altogether.

No, you seem to have misunderstood me. I don't have any problem comprehending that you can like something and criticize it, I myself think Quiet's sexualization is purile, boring and unoriginal. But my point was to call it sexist, is to try to make the person who created it or enjoys it to feel guilty for having created it or enjoyed it. This was my problem. And I'm not sure if people are complaining about there being not enough games with a female gaze or not, it's just that I think there should probably be more of them available (as well as games without gazes in general), so we could have an equal choice in the market. And I disagree that games with a gender bias are really a problem. If there are people who want that kind of entertainment (and there clearly are, and that's not going to change), why should they not be catered to? And if a creator wants to reflect his or her personal gaze through their work, why should they told that's a bad thing? It seems that you would rather repress a natural part of human nature. The only problem in my opinion, is that the balance is off, including not having enough games without immature gender bias's in general, of course.

Crisy, remember that when people criticise the character design of Quiet, or any other character they feel is overtly sexualised, they don't do so in isolation. The problem isn't that one specific character crosses a predefined threshold for what is acceptable, because such a thing doesn't really exist. Rather, that character exists as yet another example in a broad, negative picture. The picture is criticised, and the character is held up as one example among many.

So, looking at Quiet specifically, people aren't being prudish, saying she's too risqué. Instead, it appears to be yet another game with a female character created to appeal to adolescent male fantasy, thus contributing to a wider cultural problem with the representation of women in games.

In isolation, there is nothing wrong with Quiet's design (other than fishnets being rather inappropriate for a combat situation). But it doesn't exist in isolation.

This is fair enough really, and I do definitely agree that there are far too many of these kinds of female representation in games, and that is an important point to make. I personally just disagree that shouting sexism at every puerile character in a sexy outfit is an appropriate or fair way to make that point.

[minkee]

"This isn't a problem for me personally, therefore it isn't a problem at all."

[Spacehost]

There seems to be some weird logical chasm for some people where criticising something for its design or maturity or narrative intent is fine, but criticising it on gender politics grounds is an attack on a creator designed to promote shame and self censorship.

[Spacehost]

Also, if you don't find the only known female character in a game being completely devoid of voice, wearing nothing but a bikini and stockings, and designed to be erotic for the gratification of cosplay fans, as being at least a little sexist I would be kind of baffled.

[RubberJohnny]

There seems to be some weird logical chasm for some people where criticising something for its design or maturity or narrative intent is fine, but criticising it on gender politics grounds is an attack on a creator designed to promote shame and self censorship.

Yeah, not to be a dick but our Elmo is really bad for that. You'd think a guy who is on loads of podcasts and writes loads of games stuff would be aware that criticism isn't censorship, but criticism only seems to be accepted for views he agrees with, and throws "censorship" at stuff he doesn't, like the big tirade he did in the thread for The Order saying that someone was literally trying to censor the genre because they said they personally didn't really like these cinematic barely-interactive action Uncharted things, despite that poster having absolutely zero influence over the industry or what things get made. Like surely you'd get a bit of cognitive dissonance for saying that and then turning around and saying that you didn't like a game? No?

[Alex W.]

I personally just disagree that shouting sexism at every puerile character in a sexy outfit is an appropriate or fair way to make that point.

Well, given that people here have been giving you detailed blow-by-blow explanations as to why this *specific* character is sexist, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

[Alex W.]

And if a creator wants to reflect his or her personal gaze through their work, why should they told that's a bad thing?

At the risk of being patronising: because they're producing a work of art at best, or a designed object at worst, meant for the mass consumption of millions of people, in a medium that has a tradition of creative analysis and discussion? I mean, they're basically saying to the universe "please have an opinion about this thing I am doing".

If Hideo Kojima wants to sit in his office drawing boobs all day, nobody has the right to bust in and tell him off for it, but if he wants to be an auteur, people are going to discuss his work as part of a larger creative environment. That's what creative media are all about.

[Anne Summers]

Not to detract from AS's message in the new video, but I found the assertion that Jade's uncle's hovercraft is in dire need of repair is proof of the character's working class credentials quite funny.

Edit: Then I immediately got depressed when I realized that this point will almost certainly be used by a Gamergater at some point as irrefutable proof that the fundamental gist of the video is flawed and that Anita is the figurehead of an international left wing conspiracy to undermine men.

[squirtle]

Not to detract from AS's message in the new video, but I found the assertion that Jade's uncle's hovercraft is in dire need of repair is proof of the character's working class credentials quite funny.

Edit: Then I immediately got depressed when I realized that this point will almost certainly be used by a Gamergater at some point as irrefutable proof that the fundamental gist of the video is flawed and that Anita is the figurehead of an international left wing conspiracy to undermine men.

Yeah, but the hovercraft in Beyond Good and Evil is the equivalent of real world cars. They need the hovercraft to work, so how else would you read it?

[Fury4k]

Well, lets try the litmus test for what is appropriate and what is derogatory and disrespectful - how would you feel if someone said your mother or your sister or your daughter could only attend an event if dressed like that, where all the men would be fully clothed and look at her? Would you think "that would be fun and amusing and sexy in a harmless way" or would the idea make you feel uncomfortable?

Has that been announced now? That women can only go to events if dressed like quiet? Bloody Tories

[The Bag]

No, you seem to have misunderstood me. I don't have any problem comprehending that you can like something and criticize it, I myself think Quiet's sexualization is purile, boring and unoriginal. But my point was to call it sexist, is to try to make the person who created it or enjoys it to feel guilty for having created it or enjoyed it.

It is possible to criticise the work without criticising the creator, but neither is the intention of the creator a shield around the work. As has been shown time and again it is very possible to create something which can be seen as offensive without meaning to - through poor judgement, or not knowing certain elements has such associations or whatever. Should this be ignored? If it wasn't intentional then maybe the creator learns something and does it differently the next time.

[deerokus]

MRAs seem to be turning their ire to film - the new Mad Max has them very riled up so they are boycotting it.

Boy bring the operative word I suppose.

[RubberJohnny]

They got the writer of the Vagina Monologues to consult on it to tastefully handle its storyline about sex slavery, which is causing people to rage because I don't know, they don't like creative freedom when it involves handling women characters well?

[The Bag]

Obviously rule 1 of creative freedom is "Treat Women Like Shit" anything else is just giving in the the feminazi agenda and not making something a Real Man would make. Rule 2 is "Only Ask Men", men can be trusted to give objective opinions unlike women who will just repeat some SJW bullshit.

[The Bag]

And here's a link: http://www.themarysue.com/mra-to-the-max/

The comments they've pulled from Return of the Kings are the usual crap:

Not only REFUSE to see the movie, but spread the word to as many men as possible. Because if [men] sheepishly attend and Fury Road is a blockbuster, then you, me, and all the other men (and real women) in the world will never be able to see a real action movie ever again that doesnt contain some damn political lecture or moray about feminism, SJW-ing, and socialism.

[...] men in America and around the world are going to be duped by explosions, fire tornadoes, and desert raiders into seeing what is guaranteed to be nothing more than feminist propaganda, while at the same time being insulted AND tricked into viewing a piece of American culture ruined and rewritten right in front of their very eyes.

Hollywood is a garbage propoganda machine which spews out this feminist drivel filth into the minds of todays young audience. Even though science has told us and proven, that men are physically stronger than women, it is nonetheless discarded by the forces driving this feminist nonsense.

There is a sick agenda at play here, and it only continues to get worse over time. First this, and now the upcoming Terminator Genisys which shows Sarah Connor in a more heroic and superior position to that of Kyle Reese, really makes me wonder how much further down the toilet society is going to go down, in its ridiculous attempts to try and reverse the traditional gender and biological roles.

[Spacehost]

[deerokus]

How to be a real alpha male - whine and cry on the internet about a film making you feel bad?

[squirtle]

Have they not watched Mad Max 3?

[Capwn]

And here's a link: http://www.themarysue.com/mra-to-the-max/

The comments they've pulled from Return of the Kings are the usual crap:

Was just about to come here to post this. This bit tickled me;

"Even though the movie is called “Mad Max”, the poster clearly centres around Charlize Theron, while Tom Hardy looks like some ordinary guy in the background."

Same thing with game covers, at least 90% of the time a man is at the forefront. Seems absurd that as soon a woman is the focus that it's suddenly some feminist propaganda.

[Fry Crayola]

I can't believe they've ruined that great piece of American culture... Mad Max.

[Alex W.]

A "moray about feminism"?

Is that some sort of SJW eel?

[b00dles]

I'm assuming they think that the creator of the original piece of American Culture (Australia says hello) has been brainwashed in the intervening years? They might have had some sort of vague argument if it was a remake now directed by a woman or something but it's the same bloody guy, he's even said it's more the version he wanted to make. Although he did make Happy Feet 1 & 2 in the intervening years so maybe he has gone soft

[rumblecat]

Someone posted about that over at Kotaku In Action, home of GamerGate. "This is how social justice warriors work. They do not build their own franchises. They take other franchises... Mad Max is now a feminist power fantasy. Sorry to break it to you, but that franchise is gone."

And even GamerGate couldn't take that shit seriously. Top rated posts on it-

[–]JaronK 10 points 11 hours ago

Okay let me get this straight:

Series writer demands full control of the movie to do it how he wants. He then chooses of his own free will to bring in Ensler to help him with the movie, and the result, which is what he wants, is an awesome actress running around kicking ass.

What the fuck is the problem here? There's no censorship, there's no cronyism, the movie is exactly what the guy wanted! Is the claim here that there's too many feminist power fantasies around Hollywood or something? The last good one I remember was The Long Kiss Goodnight and that was decades ago.

But hey, if you're turned off by women having action packed roles, well... this ain't your movie. But it's certainly fine by me!

[–]catjpg 1 point

9 hours ago

seriously, I don't see any problem here and this looks like a treat to see! all I see in this thread so far are a bunch of haters warning about the fempocalypse. no wonder why no one takes GG seriously anymore.

[Broker]

Like anyone did in the first place

[Spuck]

Mad Max: Thunder Road, from the creator of 'Babe'*

That said I'm insanely excited for that film, the fact its pissed off the gormless MRA activists makes it that much sweeter.

*Babe was awesome

[smac]

And complaining about Sarah Connor being too kick-ass.

Uh. They have seen Terminator 2, right? They missed that boat by about 25 years.