Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[K]

There's nothing wrong with being sexy - that one to Spinal Tap - but the problem obviously isn't sexy outfits, it's that those sexy outfits only ever seem to appear on sexy women. Male characters' uniforms in Metal Gear games tend not to be cut down to the navel so that they can flaunt their curves, and this season are usually worn with trousers with lots of pockets, rather than PVC chaps. The action figures of male Metal Gear characters don't have mouldable plastic cocks that you can squeeze and arrange in their trousers as you wish, no matter how many anguished emails I send to Konami.

The female characters and the male characters are both designed to accommodate the male gaze, with the men existing as macho fantasies of power and aggression, and the female characters existing as male fantasies of sexually provocative women. The women in the game don't have any independent existence or purpose beyond fulfilment of male fantasy. And there's nothing wrong with that in itself, apart from the fact that this is all one-way. If Kojima wanted to subvert those kinds of ideas, or to explore them from different directions then that would be really interesting; as it is, it's just giving one perspective and one direction of gaze, which is coincidentally the same perspective and the same direction of gaze that the vast majority of mainstream games follow, which is just boring from my point of view, and must be positively toxic from the point of view of women who want to play the game.

Sexiness from a male and female perspective is the basis of a solid relationship; sexiness from the male perspective alone is the basis of a night in front of Youporn, or worse, the basis of all of Dapper Laughs' material.

[Michael J Glocks]

Nice, a glib reply with a gif. Yep I'm on the internet.

Well why should the people who don't want/don't care about better representation of women in video games trump the people who do? How do you expect any creative medium to develop if it's all just a bit of fun and stop taking it so seriously and let's just maintain the status quo because I'm fine with it right now just as it is thanks very much.

[crisy]

The normalisation of such imagery has an effect on those consuming the media. When you see people be casually racist, sexist or demeaning towards other demographics, it's likely their behaviour is imitating what they consume.

Also, such lazy imagery can have a negative impact on a game's overall quality. Veering away from tropes, including sexist ones, can make a good game great. It's not rocket surgery.

Quiet's outfit isn't really sexist though. Sexualization isn't sexism. But I agree that it shouldn't belong in every game and that there are games in which ridiculous over sexualization can impact the quality. Metal Gear is not one of those games though.

The female characters and the male characters are both designed to accommodate the male gaze, with the men existing as macho fantasies of power and aggression, and the female characters existing as male fantasies of sexually provocative women. The women in the game don't have any independent existence or purpose beyond fulfilment of male fantasy. And there's nothing wrong with that in itself, apart from the fact that this is all one-way. If Kojima wanted to subvert those kinds of ideas, or to explore them from different directions then that would be really interesting; as it is, it's just giving one perspective and one direction of gaze, which is coincidentally the same perspective and the same direction of gaze that the vast majority of mainstream games follow, which is just boring from my point of view, and must be positively toxic from the point of view of women who want to play the game.

I agree with most of this,( aside from the claim that the women in game don't have purpose beyond fulfillment of male fantasy, there are plenty of good women characters in the series), but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a game having a "male gaze". It's directed by a man, who clearly enjoys erotic depiction of women so naturally it will have a male gaze. The solution to this problem isn't telling people like Kojima to stop making games with male gaze, I think the solution is to have more games with a female gaze made. And this is actually an area where Japan is ahead of west, with more games that do actually cater to the female gaze. So as I said in the first place I don't think Japan is really "behind the west".

I'm for equal objectification.

[Dig Dug]

I think the solution is to have more games with a female gaze made. And this is actually an area where Japan is ahead of west, with more games that do actually cater to the female gaze. So as I said in the first place I don't think Japan is really "behind the west".

I'm for equal objectification.

NONONONONONONONONONO

That is completely and totally the wrong thing to do.

[crisy]

why?

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

The normalisation of such imagery has an effect on those consuming the media. When you see people be casually racist, sexist or demeaning towards other demographics, it's likely their behaviour is imitating what they consume.

Hmm, I always find these dangerous things to wheel out as stone cold facts, as it's the exact same argument used by the Jack Thompsons of this world to ban violent videogames. If I'm not mistaken there was a study published a few months ago (which was linked to in this thread) that in fact concluded that playing sexist videogames didn't have any demonstrable effect on those playing them at all.

[Dig Dug]

why?

Because you are still doing the same thing as before only in reverse. It's still the same problem. "The gaze" is still "the gaze" whether the target is male or female, you shouldn't be actively encouraging the use of the reverse gaze as a solution to the gaze, it is counter-productive and does absolutely nothing to absolve the original issue.

[crisy]

But what is so inherently wrong with "the gaze"? I'm not saying all games need or should have this, but sometimes it can be fun to "objectify" and have sexy camera angles or whatever else. It's not necessarily harmful, and if there's a market that finds that content fun and sexy, why not?

[ZOK]

I'm for equal objectification.

This always makes me laugh. No you're not, you just think you are because never happens, and it will never happen.

The idea that male fans of MGS would just go, 'yeah that's fine' if all the male characters had their cocks flopping about is just silly.

But what is so inherently wrong with "the gaze"? I'm not saying all games need or should have this, but sometimes it can be fun to "objectify" and have sexy camera angles or whatever else. It's not necessarily harmful, and if there's a market that finds that content fun and sexy, why not?

Hang about, are we back to page one of this thread again?

[Kelthink]

Hmm, I always find these dangerous things to wheel out as stone cold facts, as it's the exact same argument used by the Jack Thompsons of this world to ban violent videogames. If I'm not mistaken there was a study published a few months ago (which was linked to in this thread) that in fact concluded that playing sexist videogames didn't have any demonstrable effect on those playing them at all.

There was a study concluding 'games don't cause sexism', which is not the same as 'games normalise sexism'. The second statement is obviously harder to measure, but to infer that you're not affected in any way by the media you consume is questionable.

[crisy]

This always makes me laugh. No you're not, you just think you are because never happens, and it will never happen..

Yes I am actually, because I enjoy ogling attractive male characters as much as I do female characters.

[Dig Dug]

Solid argument.

[Alex W.]

But what is so inherently wrong with "the gaze"? I'm not saying all games need or should have this, but sometimes it can be fun to "objectify" and have sexy camera angles or whatever else. It's not necessarily harmful, and if there's a market that finds that content fun and sexy, why not?

Well, if Kojima was making a porno, that'd be fine. Horses for courses and all that. Instead he's pretending to make a serious, interesting spy revenge thriller, and his idea of how to make a character have sex appeal is to dress her in a bikini and leggings. That's not just kind of a tone-breaker, it's just a really lazy, stupid way of trying to make a character sexy. You want to talk about sexual female characters? Fine: Diziet Sma, Iain M. Banks' Perfect Girlfriend 1.0, basically humps her way across the cosmos, recreationally, in the background of Use of Weapons. And it manages to form a narrative counterpoint to the protagonist's inability to handle his own need for violence. It's great. And it's the kind of good writing that Kojima could only dream of.

Sexuality in fiction is a great thing, but Kojima's handling of it is about as good as his dialogue, and deserves just as much mockery.

[Straps]

[crisy]

Well, if Kojima was making a porno, that'd be fine. Horses for courses and all that. Instead he's pretending to make a serious, interesting spy revenge thriller, and his idea of how to make a character have sex appeal is to dress her in a bikini and leggings. That's not just kind of a tone-breaker, it's just a really lazy, stupid way of trying to make a character sexy. You want to talk about sexual female characters? Fine: Diziet Sma, Iain M. Blanks' Perfect Girlfriend 1.0, basically humps her way across the cosmos, recreationally, in the background of Use of Weapons. And it manages to form a narrative counterpoint to the protagonist's inability to handle his own need for violence. It's great. And it's the kind of good writing that Kojima could only dream of.

Sexuality in fiction is a great thing, but Kojima's handling of it is about as good as his dialogue, and deserves just as much mockery.

Personally I wouldn't describe Metal Gear as "serious", so I don't find it tone breaking. But all of this fine, you might think Kojima's idea of what's sexy is unsophisticated, and it probably is. But this is his game, and that's what he likes. So yeah mocking it and calling it silly I get, because it is, but calling it sexist, I really don't get.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

There was a study concluding 'games don't cause sexism', which is not the same as 'games normalise sexism'. The second statement is obviously harder to measure, but to infer that you're not affected in any way by the media you consume is questionable.

But you said "it's likely their behaviour is imitating what they consume", ie they copy it so the content causes it.

[Alex W.]

Personally I wouldn't describe Metal Gear as "serious", so I don't find it tone breaking. But all of this fine, you might think Kojima's idea of what's sexy is unsophisticated, and it probably is. But this is his game, and that's what he likes. So yeah mocking it and calling it silly I get, because it is, but calling it sexist, I really don't get.

Very few of his female characters aren't sexualised at one time or another.* That's a very sexist view of women. It'd be different if you had a contrived sexy posing scene with each member of the male cast.

*http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Female

It'd be different if it was just an off-and-on thing, you know. However he's remarkably consistent.

[crisy]

I still don't think there's anything inherently wrong with cast of mostly sexualized women. Likewise I don't think there's anything wrong with a piece of fiction starring a cast of men that have all been specifically designed to stimulate and appeal to women. And there is actually a booming market for the latter in Japan. As I said, I believe in equal rights to objectify.

Also, I think female characters who are "objectified" can still be great, strong and independent characters, not just purely stereotypes.

With all of this said, it would be great to see more games made with more realistic female representation, but I honestly don't think games or creators that choose to go the other route should automatically be labelled as sexist and told to alter their content.

[Spacehost]

Personally I wouldn't describe Metal Gear as "serious", so I don't find it tone breaking.

Yeah, I'm sure the subplot in Ground Zeroes where a man repeatedly rapes Paz, forces Chico to do the same, then removes her organs to plan a bomb in her before jamming another bomb into her genitals is there for the laughs.

The central theme of Phantom Pain is apparently "race" and features child soldiers in Africa during the post-colonial civil wars, some of which is still ongoing today. You can't legitimately attempt to deal with those kind of issues in a game featuring a photometrically scanned actress' head on top of a body out of a fifteen year old's mental wank bank dressed in nothing but a bikini and say with a straight face it's tonally consistent.

[Fury4k]

I think people should wait for MGS5 to come out before they judge it too harshly. We really don't know what the game will offer, or how it will handle or attempt to justify that stuff (not that I think it needs to). Besides MGS4, Kojima has delivered nothing but hits throughout the entire series, so I've got more than a little faith in him.

[Spacehost]

And I could write a fucking thesis on the problems with Paz in Peace Walker, which revolve around sexualising a 14 year old girl to the point you can literally undress her with your eyes and fuck her in a cardboard box, with Kojima running around shouting "hash tag no paedo!" at the end and saying she's actually a 21 year old pretending to be a child.

I think people should wait for MGS5 to come out before they judge it too harshly. We really don't know what the game will offer, or how it will handle or attempt to justify that stuff (not that I think it needs to). Besides MGS4, Kojima has delivered nothing but hits throughout the entire series, so I've got more than a little faith in him.

Maybe it'll be the kind of subtle human drama never before seen in videogames, but then again, squeezable breast action figure.

[crisy]

Well I haven't played Peace Walker or Ground Zeros, so I can't talk on them. But anyway, I was specifically talking about the reaction to Quiets outfit, which as I said, I think is harmless. I have no idea about any of these rape subplots you're talking about in the other games.

[matt0]

Well I haven't played Peace Walker or Ground Zeros, so I can't talk on them. But anyway, I was specifically talking about the reaction to Quiets outfit, which as I said, I think is harmless. I have no idea about any of these rape subplots you're talking about in the other games.

How do you feel about the outfit in the wider context of the series explained over the last few posts, rape subplots and all?

[b00dles]

I happen to be a bit drunk but to suggest Japan is ahead of the west in regards to equality is quite frankly bonkers.

OK, Kojima might be making a game (or his entire history) that's intentionally a bit ironic or objectifying women "cos that's what he's into" as being OK is exactly the problem with video games and media at the moment. This thread exists purely because a woman has said 'look at how much objectification there is in games' - regardless of whether you may welcome an equivalent for the laydeez, it simply doesn't exist because of the ingrained sexism in the industry and to a degree society at large. If there was a game which was as blatant in it's depiction of women, the GG-ers out there would shit on it from a high pedal stool and suggest it was degrading to men.

I can't even convey how blinkered it is to say let Kojima do that cos that's what he likes, it's the most myopic thing I've ever heard. The majority of the audience don't perceive these things as being a cultural thing, or even an in-joke, or anything of the sort, it's taken as being OK to do this sort of thing, or normal that women are no more than sex objects.

[Alex W.]

Well I haven't played Peace Walker or Ground Zeros, so I can't talk on them. But anyway, I was specifically talking about the reaction to Quiets outfit, which as I said, I think is harmless. I have no idea about any of these rape subplots you're talking about in the other games.

I would strongly recommend you play them, because they're irredeemably Kojima, excellent, and kind of essential to understanding the smoking crater of public opinion Kojima finds himself in.

[Alex W.]

I think at this stage we've adequately explained why:

1) Kojima's portrayal of women is generally sexist

2) Why Quiet's outfit specifically is sexist

3) Why it's bad writing

4) Why it's considered a social harm to spread these ideas about women

Now, if you want to be okay with that, it's your perogative, but not being okay with it and discussing why that might be is as much a part of engaging with the MGS franchise as debating exactly which parts of MGS4 to ignore.

Actually, a simile occurs to me. The world of MGS4 is the way it is, to spread ideas: all the PMCs are a certain way because that makes a point about the war economy, and so on. Now, without intent, and just because he was indulging himself, Kojima also made it a world where every woman is a certain way - a sex object with boob physics - which makes an unintended point about women. And he's done this over and over. That's the problem: he's spreading a message about how PMCs are for ruining countries, but also won about how women are for ogling.

[crisy]

I can't even convey how blinkered it is to say let Kojima do that cos that's what he likes, it's the most myopic thing I've ever heard. The majority of the audience don't perceive these things as being a cultural thing, or even an in-joke, or anything of the sort, it's taken as being OK to do this sort of thing, or normal that women are no more than sex objects.

As previously stated I haven't played the last two games so can't talk on them and what they might encourage, but I don't think sexualized outfits or camera angles suggest it's ok to do anything, other than look at the breasts or bum of attractive women, and we all do that naturally anyway. The character might end up really being a horrible, backwards, sexist stereotype. But titillating character designs are nothing to be scared of, and are not responsible for the sexism and misogyny that exist in society.

I think at this stage we've adequately explained why:

1) Kojima's portrayal of women is generally sexist

2) Why Quiet's outfit specifically is sexist

3) Why it's bad writing

4) Why it's considered a social harm to spread these ideas about women

Now, if you want to be okay with that, it's your perogative, but not being okay with it and discussing why that might be is as much a part of engaging with the MGS franchise as debating exactly which parts of MGS4 to ignore.

Nope I've still haven't heard a convincing argument as to why her outfit specifically is sexist.

[Alex W.]

In the bluntest technical sense, it's sexist because no male NPC will spend the game dressed equivalently. Or ever has.

[Fury4k]

The costume is overtly sexualised and in the hands of an unknown, unproven director I'd be less weary. But Kojima is too savy a director to do something like that just for the sake of it. I may be proven wrong, but I'm more than happy to assume he's got a good reason for the way the character looks.

[crisy]

In the bluntest technical sense, it's sexist because no male NPC will spend the game dressed equivalently. Or ever has.

I still don't think that makes it sexist. And I assume you're meaning guys running around with their dongs out as Zok was saying earlier? But generally that wouldn't arouse women in the same way that women with their breasts would arouse a guy, so there would be no point in that. And MGS4 had some admirable angles of Snake's bum to be fair.