Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

[loathsomeleopard]

This link (which itself has the text under a spoiler tag, because it's... not very pleasant and definitely NSFW) has the text of the tweet in question.

I'd say she was being fairly restrained and playing the troll at his own game.

[Benny]

Yeah for Rowling to be in any danger of being reduced to the same depths with her response she would have needed James Cameron's help.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

Do any of those penis enlargers actually work? I always thought they were a scam. I'm asking for a friend.

[Spacehost]

Guy from Star Trek NG sums it all up quite succinctly.

CD0uAUxUEAAyrYQ.png

I've got an amazing mental image of fedora-clad MRAs angrily throwing every TNG and DS9 DVD and all the TNG movies into their wheelie bin while screaming incoherently.

[Benny]

I've got an amazing mental image of fedora-clad MRAs angrily throwing every TNG and DS9 DVD and all the TNG movies into their wheelie bin while screaming incoherently.

[Tangent]

No, it was a sexist insult that could only apply to a man.

It's on the level of a man replying "Get back in the kitchen".

Nah. He was a vile misogynist and took a cowardly shot at her without any good reason. She basically told him to piss off and stop trying to boost his fragile male ego, but in a very amusing way. Context is everything.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

So what? JK is an author, not the poster girl for PC Britain. More power to her.

Also, "gendered"... Is that even a word? It sounds dirty.

[Tangent]

Cunt in caps followed by bitchface. Not gender specific at all. OK!

[Tangent]

there were no threats of violence or rape.

You set the bar pretty high Geekette.

[crisy]

Some arsehole called her a cunt, and she told him to go buy a penis enlarger. Why are we even analyzing this? They're just childish insults, who cares if it's gender specific or not. It's no more or less offensive than calling a short person "short stuff" or something like that.

Jesus, short stuff, how many American movies must I have watched.

[Capwn]

Can see this getting picked up for criticism;

[Spacehost]

I think this probably lands more in the "crass marketing and merchandising" part of the spectrum than anything else, but as part of the wider absurdity of Quiet I guess it deserves to be commented on. I mean, they didn't do a Black Widow figure for Age of Ultron with Unrealistic Bosum Action.

[Dig Dug]

There's something incredibly impressive with Kojima's complete and utter lack of self-awareness when it comes to these things.

[Capwn]

Yeah it's frustrating. He was really defending the character a few years ago, essentially just saying 'Just wait and see!' as if to suggest there is something much deeper going on with this character. Cue to now, excitedly pointing out that her toy figure has soft squishy breasts It's a culture thing, Japan hasn't quite caught up yet but you'd think a guy that really embraces Western culture such as Kojima would have a good hold on what is and isn't acceptable over here. You couldn't do this with say, the Black Widow figure in the Avengers toyline , it just wouldn't pass.

[Alex W.]

Yoji Shinkawa there wondering how his life has come to this.

[TheSlugFormerlyKnownAsNap]

I think my youth would have looked very differently if I had female action figures with realistic action breasts.

[Dig Dug]

Yeah it's frustrating. He was really defending the character a few years ago, essentially just saying 'Just wait and see!' as if to suggest there is something much deeper going on with this character. Cue to now, excitedly pointing out that her toy figure has soft squishy breasts It's a culture thing, Japan hasn't quite caught up yet but you'd think a guy that really embraces Western culture such as Kojima would have a good hold on what is and isn't acceptable over here. You couldn't do this with say, the Black Widow figure in the Avengers toyline , it just wouldn't pass.

Kojima doesn't really embrace western culture as much as he embraces western pop-culture. Kind of like how a lot of Japan lovers in this country only know about the pop cultural and media related stuff.

[crisy]

Crass yeah probably. But it's completely harmless stuff. Not to do with the toy itself, but it does increasingly seem like you can't have overtly sexy female characters in video games without receiving a barrage of criticisms claiming sexism. As evidenced by Quiet in MGS5 and that mechanic character in the new Final Fantasy. It's as if Mary Whitehouse's spirit is being channeled through modern super PC types.

Japan hasn't quite caught up yet but you'd think a guy that really embraces Western culture such as Kojima would have a good hold on what is and isn't acceptable over here

Sometimes I think it's the opposite to be honest, and that the West needs to catch up and stop with all the shame and blame over harmless things which don't deserve any. Kojima is clearly someone that has forever enjoyed having these type of sexual and skimpily dressed women in his works, so why should he cut them out because you get all embarrassed over it? MGS is nothing if not a reflection of Kojima's personality, and it would be shame if that was lost.

Instead of talking so much about things you don't want to see (but other people do), why don't people talk more about what they do want to see,

[Alex W.]

There's a difference between being sexual and being a walking wank object. If her boobs are so important that they need new action figure technology either she's a weird sex fantasy or they're somehow integral to her plot and characterisation.

[Spacehost]

It's not like she was specifically designed like that for cosplayers to look sexy dressed as her or anything.

I also love some of the justifications coming out of Konami; "we're not objectifying women, we consider lots of things sexy, I mean Quiet is a sexy women, but you have a sexy gun, or a sexy tank, or a sexy aeroplane".

[Alex W.]

Yes, putting women in the same category as inanimate objects. Savvy.

[Kelthink]

Crass yeah probably. But it's completely harmless stuff. Not to do with the toy itself, but it does increasingly seem like you can't have overtly sexy female characters in video games without receiving a barrage of criticisms claiming sexism. As evidenced by Quiet in MGS5 and that mechanic character in the new Final Fantasy. It's as if Mary Whitehouse's spirit is being channeled through modern super PC types.

Sometimes I think it's the opposite to be honest, and that the West needs to catch up and stop with all the shame and blame over harmless things which don't deserve any. Kojima is clearly someone that has forever enjoyed having these type of sexual and skimpily dressed women in his works, so why should he cut them out because you get all embarrassed over it? MGS is nothing if not a reflection of Kojima's personality, and it would be shame if that was lost.

Instead of talking so much about things you don't want to see (but other people do), why don't people talk more about what they do want to see,

It's like buzzword bingo.

It's just a game. If you want games to be taken seriously, everything in them should be subject to criticism, and Metal Gear Solid has always had this weird sexist undertone.

[jon_cybernet]

You couldn't do this with say, the Black Widow figure in the Avengers toyline , it just wouldn't pass.

Although that's mostly because Marvel refuse to make Black Widow figures, because girl action figures don't sell apparently.

[Nick R]

Someone on Whedonesque explained the Black Widow toy thing a few weeks ago. Apparently it's down to the guidelines that Disney gives to the toy company licencees, regarding recommended ways to use their IP:

every year we have a corporate event organized by Disney for local licensors and interested parties, which allow them to showcase the plans for the immediate following year, some highlights for the next few years:

This was back in July, right before Guardians of the Galaxy premiered. I was there last year and was able to watch a presentation titled: "All about the Licenses: Disney, Marvel, Lucasfilm 2014 -2015". During the presentation they went by each license, covering what's to come. There is where I got the first preview for Star Wars Rebels, for example. When they went to the Marvel section, they treated that strictly as a license for boys, in the same was that they treat the Disney Princess line as a license for girls. I was even able to grab a copy of the guidelines, and the Marvel property is never targeted to girls for the Marketing department. It's not something that the toy manufacturers are at fault, when the head company that is allow you to use their license include only recommendations of how to use it for boys, but never for girls.

[crisy]

There's a difference between being sexual and being a walking wank object. If her boobs are so important that they need new action figure technology either she's a weird sex fantasy or they're somehow integral to her plot and characterisation.

And what exactly is the problem if she is a weird sex fantasy of Kojima's that he wanted to put in the game?

It's like buzzword bingo.

It's just a game. If you want games to be taken seriously, everything in them should be subject to criticism, and Metal Gear Solid has always had this weird sexist undertone.

To be honest I'd rather thing's weren't taken so seriously to the point that things which are clearly harmless and a bit of fun, like Quiet's design clearly is, get's over analysed and labelled as sexism.

I just can't fathom how people can get themselves worked up over the fact that a character in a ludicrous game world has an equally ludicrous over sexualized costume design. Do people have any sense of fun and humour anymore?

[Michael J Glocks]

Instead of talking so much about things you don't want to see (but other people do), why don't people talk more about what they do want to see,

I do want to see better representation of women in video games.

[crisy]

Nice, a glib reply with a gif. Yep I'm on the internet.

[Wiper]

I just can't fathom how people can get themselves worked up over the fact that a character in a ludicrous game world has an equally ludicrous over sexualized costume design. Do people have any sense of fun and humour anymore?

Yeah, if only people were more like the MGS series, as pure a source of humourous fun as can be imagined!

[Kelthink]

To be honest I'd rather thing's weren't taken so seriously to the point that things which are clearly harmless and a bit of fun, like Quiet's design clearly is, get's over analysed and labelled as sexism.

I just can't fathom how people can get themselves worked up over the fact that a character in a ludicrous game world has an equally ludicrous over sexualized costume design. Do people have any sense of fun and humour anymore?

The normalisation of such imagery has an effect on those consuming the media. When you see people be casually racist, sexist or demeaning towards other demographics, it's likely their behaviour is imitating what they consume.

Also, such lazy imagery can have a negative impact on a game's overall quality. Veering away from tropes, including sexist ones, can make a good game great. It's not rocket surgery.

[matt0]

How about I want better representation of women in videogames because I care very deeply about them as a medium. Because I feel the teenage wank fantasy stuff makes us all look like a bunch of clowns. Because I have a son and nieces and nephews who I would very much like to share videogames with without thinking I'm opening a door to a skeevy subculture whose pathological issues with women are so raw and openly displayed it's scarcely believable.

No gif.