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Gender Diversity / Politics in games (was Tropes Vs. Women)

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13 minutes ago, NEG said:

It doesn't help women, it doesn't help men. It just helps us frown upon things that might make us feel socially superior for doing so.

 

I've never put anyone on ignore before but I'm this close. You can't actually be this stupid so you must be trolling.

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3 minutes ago, NEG said:

There is a difference in my view between a series focused on gaming tropes, butts and camera angles compared with downsizing the value of beauty in media as a whole.

Can you not see how one is an extrapolation of the other? How else can we challenge the idea of objectification if we don't challenge the individual instances of objectification?
 

5 minutes ago, NEG said:

It doesn't help women, it doesn't help men. It just helps us frown upon things that might make us feel socially superior for doing so.

Except it demonstrably has helped, in that many content creators have taken on board criticisms and decided to change their approach to female representation in games. In turn, better representation helps women by surrounding them with fewer negative reinforcements and more positive role models.

This is literally the whole point of the project and of any media criticism in general! What on earth are you doing here if you don't even see that?

 

8 minutes ago, NEG said:

And considering it a win if game developers stop making fantasy dressed characters, or if there are, the camera should never look at them, ever! What a win for society. :)

Except that nobody has suggested this as a solution, and if you genuinely think they have, you have comprehensively failed to understand the point of this project! Or the nature of criticism, tropes, or anything.

Nobody is saying "no more bums in games, ever!" Mate, seriously. How many times do you have to be told this?

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30 minutes ago, NEG said:

You also didn't really answer my question. Tropes Vs Video Games isn't great for toddler/young girls, I'd imagine. It's focused/packaged to an extent that (contents-wise), like I've said, helps very little.

 

I would have said that TvW was perfectly suitable for children or at least young teens (outside of some content warnings), in that it's a fairly straightforward analysis of recurring tropes with full definitions provided and no particular prior knowledge needed to understand it.

But then many supposed adults utterly fail to grasp such simple concepts as "there's too much of this sort of thing" without parsing it as a threat to their manhood, so what do I know?

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31 minutes ago, Darren said:

 

I've never put anyone on ignore before but I'm this close. You can't actually be this stupid so you must be trolling.

 

I was initially going to write that the problem with the tropes series is being focused on gaming in the first place before writing that instead. Maybe being harsh by saying it helps none, it's made gamers aware of gaming tropes (to a overly mixed understanding of what's being pointed out, as evident anywhere) but a wider confrontation of, like I said, the capitalistic nature of beauty, would be the kind of show I'd prefer. Gaming bums can still be an issue as a part of that, but gaming bums alone fix nothing is what I was trying to say I guess.

 

26 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

Can you not see how one is an extrapolation of the other? How else can we challenge the idea of objectification if we don't challenge the individual instances of objectification?

 

Is there a problem with challenging it as a whole rather then such small chunks that the puzzle pieces feel impossible to put together?

 

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Except it demonstrably has helped, in that many content creators have taken on board criticisms and decided to change their approach to female representation in games. In turn, better representation helps women by surrounding them with fewer negative reinforcements and more positive role models.

 

Hard to say. From my point of view the main thing the subjects been doing is scaring some devs into not doing whatever they feel like. Aka: bad publicity which no one wants, better conform to whatever the law now is. It all comes down to money, the people that actually started thinking differently is little I'd say. You won't get that until it's tackled larger.

Don't know about better female role models as I don't tend to play the popular AAA games, but that's certainly a positive if so. You can be just as critical of the Tomb Raider re-design simply being a Uncharted copycat when it comes to human'ifying Lara though, for example.

 

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Except that nobody has suggested this as a solution, and if you genuinely think they have, you have comprehensively failed to understand the point of this project! Or the nature of criticism, tropes, or anything.

Nobody is saying "no more bums in games, ever!" Mate, seriously. How many times do you have to be told this?

 

But if you do put bums in games it'll be claimed as sexist no matter how un-sexist the devs actually are, correct? Thus bad publicity. Nobody wants that.

 

My point wasn't that however. More so that bums and camera angles don't do as much as claimed/the entire videos devoted to the topic, and their removal being pointless in the grand scheme of things.

 

Man, I've missed this rambling like this. Sort of. Not really.

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Why is anybody still talking to NEG or rockstarjiz? it's pointless, just stop responding. it just encourages them. They are never, ever going to get it. They are never going to change their minds. It just shits up the thread.

 

Jez is obviously very seriously broken by whatever awful thing happened to him in the past and is incapable of seeing his hypocrisy. All he does is lash out, He's too angry and unreasonable.

NEG is either a world class troll or a has the IQ of a cactus (but one that can type). 

 

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Apologies, but:

 

24 minutes ago, NEG said:

Is there a problem with challenging it as a whole rather then such small chunks that the puzzle pieces feel impossible to put together?

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boil_the_ocean

 

Yes, there are problems inherent to challenging it as a whole rather than small chunks. I guess those in software development are more familiar with the concept. Also, coming from the gaming perspective, it's also a grass roots effort as it potentially influences people at a young age.

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5 minutes ago, NEG said:

Is there a problem with challenging it as a whole rather then such small chunks that the puzzle pieces feel impossible to put together?

If you know of a way to "tackle the entire problem as a whole" that precludes tackling anything individually, please do share this with the world. To extend your metaphor, it would be like deciding to build a house by laying every brick simultaneously instead of one at a time.
 

8 minutes ago, NEG said:

Hard to say. From my point of view the main thing the subjects been doing is scaring some devs into not doing whatever they feel like.

It sounds like your point-of-view is wrong, then. Please feel free to point out which content creators have become scared and forced to do things they don't want to, as that sounds thrilling and not at all like a paranoid fantasy.

 

11 minutes ago, NEG said:

Don't know about better female role models as I don't tend to play the popular AAA games, but that's certainly a positive if so. You can be just as critical of the Tomb Raider re-design simply being a Uncharted copycat when it comes to human'ifying Lara though, for example.

I genuinely have no idea what point you're making here, if any.

 

16 minutes ago, NEG said:

But if you do put bums in games it'll be claimed as sexist no matter how un-sexist the devs actually are, correct?

This is a huge oversimplification of the issue, so no, it's not correct.

Everything any content creator puts out there to be consumed is opening that work up to be examined and criticised. If you've made a game that has leery camera angles on all the women's arses, then yes, you're going to see the work criticised for its use of a sexist trope. You don't need to be a sexist person to use a sexist trope, and most of the time it's done simply out of habit because you exist in a world where such tropes are normal (which is what makes them tropes!).
Now, if you've unconsciously done something because it's normal, then you would want to know about that, as a former Fable-developer and forum member (TheBag, is it? Sorry, can't remember the name) amongst others, can attest. Because nobody wants to put derivative lazy tropes in a piece of work. Lazy tropes are shit, unless you intend to use them in an ironic sort of way.

And if you genuinely did want to include leery arse-shots and did it on purpose and have no intention to change, then a bit of criticism or bad publicity probably isn't and shouldn't make any difference, because why would you give a shit?

 

40 minutes ago, NEG said:

My point wasn't that however. More so that bums and camera angles don't do as much as claimed/the entire videos devoted to the topic, and their removal being pointless in the grand scheme of things.

1) "Don't do as much as claimed". Claimed by who? How much do you think these things are being claimed to do? The only one making grand claims here appears to be you.
2) "Entire videos". There's one TvW video devoted to the one topic of the overuse of leery bum shots as a recurring theme in games.
3) "Their removal being pointless". For the last time, nobody is demanding the removal of bum shots from games. The point is to raise awareness of a trope so that content-creators can make better decisions. The end goal may be "fewer bums shots in future", which is not entirely pointless if it means women are better represented for attributes other than their bums.

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52 minutes ago, And said:

Why is anybody still talking to NEG or rockstarjiz? it's pointless, just stop responding. it just encourages them. They are never, ever going to get it. They are never going to change their minds. It just shits up the thread.

I'm kinda curious about how people's minds work, and disengagement never solves anything in the end. Disengaging with the swathes of trolls that make up our hobby over the years has probably contributed to this whole germergert clusterfuck.

Also, I'm a stubborn bastard.

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12 minutes ago, Sprite Machine said:

I'm kinda curious about how people's minds work, and disengagement never solves anything in the end. Disengaging with the swathes of trolls that make up our hobby over the years has probably contributed to this whole germergert clusterfuck.

Also, I'm a stubborn bastard.

 

I get that, but I disagree, disengaging in this instance would totally be better than another massive post of gibberish from neg or bile from jez. it's just such a joyless waste of everyone's time. Sorry, I'm done complaining. 

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5 minutes ago, And said:

 

I get that, but I disagree, disengaging in this instance would totally be better than another massive post of gibberish from neg or bile from jez. it's just such a joyless waste of everyone's time. 

Well, like I said, I'm curious about how people's minds work. So if and when NEG posts a load of absurd nonsense, I can sort of enjoy trying to work out the mental gymnastics that had to go into writing it.

Edit: I appreciate this might be terribly dull for anyone else to read, though. Apologies. Feel free to neg, etc.

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3 hours ago, NEG said:

 

Hard to say. From my point of view the main thing the subjects been doing is scaring some devs into not doing whatever they feel like. Aka: bad publicity which no one wants, better conform to whatever the law now is. It all comes down to money, the people that actually started thinking differently is little I'd say.

 

But if you do put bums in games it'll be claimed as sexist no matter how un-sexist the devs actually are, correct? Thus bad publicity. Nobody wants that.

 

My point wasn't that however. More so that bums and camera angles don't do as much as claimed/the entire videos devoted to the topic, and their removal being pointless in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

It's genuinely remarkable that you interpret developers having listened to feedback and making more considered decisions about how they portray women & sexuality in their games as "scaring devs into not doing whatever they feel like".  If whatever you feel like doing is demonstrated to you as being harmful or hurtful to others, then surely not doing it so fucking much is the logical response?

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But neg, we've covered all these things with you and you still don't seem to 'get it'. Your view of women seems to be based on stereotypes and dare I say it, tropes, from things like clueless or mean girls which are parodies in themselves. Women don't generally use their evil guiles to ensnare and trick men. You seem to have been burned somewhere along the way and that is a terrible shame. I would genuinely like to meet you in talk life in a pub or somewhere with members of the opposite sex and just go and have a chat with some. They're really friendly and often smell nice [emoji14] (joke, obv.)

This sounds quite condescending I realise and I don't mean to be but seriously, no one is going to remove bums from games completely or censor stuff, it's more about having characters other than white guys being the only people in games with any agenda. Look at what happened with mafia 3, the ridiculous outrage because the main guy is black. Or with rey being the main protagonist in TFA, did you not notice all the nods during that film in regards to finn always trying to help her when she's perfectly capable? That's what women have to put up with all through life and you know why that is? Because of lazy tropes like the damsel in distress.

It's really that simple, TvsVG is just a series of videos highlighting that issue and it's ilk in videogames.

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4 hours ago, NEG said:

better conform

 

This is an interesting choice of words. Societal norms change, and this is one of them. It's only "conforming" if they don't agree, but my sense is that you don't want to entertain that. 

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42 minutes ago, PK said:

 

It's genuinely remarkable that you interpret developers having listened to feedback and making more considered decisions about how they portray women & sexuality in their games as "scaring devs into not doing whatever they feel like".  If whatever you feel like doing is demonstrated to you as being harmful or hurtful to others, then surely not doing it so fucking much is the logical response?

 

Yes and no. I'm saying human behaviour and the way we think isn't so quickly changed as we'd like to think and it's instead market conditions that changes what devs do, not that every one of them particularly care more now. Ideally we'd want people to understand what's wrong with too much camera butt. Not just react to market conditions.

 

It's not people being honest 100% of the time is all I'm trying to say. And whilst I'm not saying 'everything should be fair game! allow everything, even the things not allowed before! go nuts!' it also irks me that humankind isn't bettered in the way I'd want it to, you know? Via simple understanding. Feels less pure, and thus might even effect some great idea that's been pushed to the back burner...like...Cookie Clicker but Butt Clicker! I kid, I kid.

 

31 minutes ago, b00dles said:

But neg, we've covered all these things with you and you still don't seem to 'get it'. Your view of women seems to be based on stereotypes and dare I say it, tropes, from things like clueless or mean girls which are parodies in themselves. Women don't generally use their evil guiles to ensnare and trick men. You seem to have been burned somewhere along the way and that is a terrible shame. I would genuinely like to meet you in talk life in a pub or somewhere with members of the opposite sex and just go and have a chat with some. They're really friendly and often smell nice [emoji14] (joke, obv.)

 

Please continue on how nice they smell. :wub:

 

It's not like men are any more innocent, we build muscle to look good for the ladies, you know. And there's nothing wrong with that was what I was trying to say. Beauty and/or the way it's represented in media is very tricky to know for sure what is de-facto not sexist and what is. You can't please everyone 100% of the time, so it was more so me asking whats required, if anything.

No burns. Women 'generally' love me for how well I get on with them. /fist pump

 

Quote

This sounds quite condescending I realise and I don't mean to be but seriously, no one is going to remove bums from games completely or censor stuff, it's more about having characters other than white guys being the only people in games with any agenda. Look at what happened with mafia 3, the ridiculous outrage because the main guy is black. Or with rey being the main protagonist in TFA, did you not notice all the nods during that film in regards to finn always trying to help her when she's perfectly capable? That's what women have to put up with all through life and you know why that is? Because of lazy tropes like the damsel in distress.

It's really that simple, TvsVG is just a series of videos highlighting that issue and it's ilk in videogames.

 

Eye candy will always exist in every medium and I've already said it will (the 50 year theory). Helping a woman as a guy is also a gentleman's gesture, you know. (I still haven't seen TFA) I don't care for agendas even if their were any. To me it's how the world works, eye candy will be there. Now the Xbone Kinect watching our homes at all times and listening to everything we say, now that was a real agenda. ;)

 

9 minutes ago, TehStu said:

 

This is an interesting choice of words. Societal norms change, and this is one of them. It's only "conforming" if they don't agree, but my sense is that you don't want to entertain that. 

 

Don't agree in the sense they don't understand the problem or don't think it's as much of a problem as some might argue. Not outright disagree, but nonetheless: oh well, better give them what they want, sigh. Of course that's some assuming on my part, but there's certainly divided opinion with some understanding some of it, not others, and so on.

Societal norms do change, but I don't believe eye candy to be one of them. Which I'm seperating from most other tropes, mind. Which will hopefully go away.

 

Waiting for you to sleep first Sprite, hands getting tired.

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19 minutes ago, NEG said:

Don't agree in the sense they don't understand the problem or don't think it's as much of a problem as some might argue. Not outright disagree, but nonetheless: oh well, better give them what they want, sigh. Of course that's some assuming on my part, but there's certainly divided opinion with some understanding some of it, not others, and so on.

Societal norms do change, but I don't believe eye candy to be one of them. Which I'm seperating from most other tropes, mind. Which will hopefully go away.

 

I'll just admit that I'm struggling with the term eye candy, particularly its use in this thread, but I digress. Yeah, I'm sure there's a range of reasons for changing. Publicity, feeling compelled, honest change, etc. The overwhelming tone I get from yourself is conformity, though. 

 

To the last bit, let's use adult language. You're right, attractiveness, sexual or otherwise, is not going to "go away". That's common sense, and quite clearly not an intended aim of anything related to this thread. Moreover, it's not going to disappear from games, because it's perfectly appropriate. I hope we can make the distinction between that and overt sexualization for the sake of it. Jez failed to see that with the Overwatch characters, Blizzard, of course, being the masters of such a thing.

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I'm certainly in the 'understand some of it, don't see the fuss about others' camp. The more recent Tropes videos haven't been as engaging, basically.

 

We're all conformists to some degree. I can't walk around naked outside if I wanted to after all. Or an easier comparison: loud music at late hours. Do I understand why such norms exist? Yes. But sometimes you want to do things a little bit outside the box, or just not as appropriately as everyone else is telling you what appropriate is.

 

I'd say some people do confuse attractiveness being an issue compared with overt sexualization, indeed.

 

See guys I even got the thread back on track for you. Enjoy

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Adherence to the law (walking outside naked) and not being a dick (loud music at night), while examples of conformity, don't have the underlying issues for women in society. Not sure where we're going with this, honestly. Yes, you're free to do what you want, including perpetuating all the issues highlighted in this thread, whether willfully or through ignorance. 

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3 hours ago, NEG said:

Don't agree in the sense they don't understand the problem or don't think it's as much of a problem as some might argue. Not outright disagree, but nonetheless: oh well, better give them what they want, sigh. Of course that's some assuming on my part, but there's certainly divided opinion with some understanding some of it, not others, and so on.

what is this I don't even

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3 hours ago, NEG said:

Yes and no. I'm saying human behaviour and the way we think isn't so quickly changed as we'd like to think and it's instead market conditions that changes what devs do, not that every one of them particularly care more now. Ideally we'd want people to understand what's wrong with too much camera butt. Not just react to market conditions.

What do you think is changing market conditions if not the social perception of what is and isn't acceptable?

 

3 hours ago, NEG said:

And whilst I'm not saying 'everything should be fair game! allow everything, even the things not allowed before! go nuts!' it also irks me that humankind isn't bettered in the way I'd want it to, you know? Via simple understanding. Feels less pure, and thus might even effect some great idea that's been pushed to the back burner...like...Cookie Clicker but Butt Clicker! I kid, I kid.

If you really want to make something, somebody telling you that you shouldn't do it isn't going to stop you. It might make you realise that you don't want to do it anymore, but that's not the same thing as still wanting to do it but not being allowed to by some sort of all-powerful morality police.

 

The fact that loads of horribly sexist, racist and bigoted shit still gets made is proof of that.
And I don't necessarily think that horribly sexist, racist and bigoted shit shouldn't be allowed to exist, but the same token, we are allowed to wholly disapprove of it and point out what's so wrong with it and why.
No-one will steal your games, NEG. It's all right.

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3 hours ago, NEG said:

Ideally we'd want people to understand what's wrong with too much camera butt. Not just react to market conditions.

Yes! Now if only there was a way this could be done. Perhaps some kind of video series that can be shared across the world, with the aim of-...

 

... etcetera, etcetera.

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I just state my thoughts and debating. Lack of understanding is the assumption of others, though who's to say everyone understands everything about everything, either.

 

On 12/05/2016 at 4:23 PM, Sprite Machine said:

If you know of a way to "tackle the entire problem as a whole" that precludes tackling anything individually, please do share this with the world. To extend your metaphor, it would be like deciding to build a house by laying every brick simultaneously instead of one at a time.

 

Well, since it's mainly media we're talking about, a 1 hour show on all aspects of every industry (that portrays sexism) would be my recommendation compared to just games. Would it help more? My opinion is yes, as it shows how wide and boring some tropes had become. Gaming alone is limited. I understand the point that by limiting it might be more understandable to some however.

 

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It sounds like your point-of-view is wrong, then. Please feel free to point out which content creators have become scared and forced to do things they don't want to, as that sounds thrilling and not at all like a paranoid fantasy.

 

I think I've already answered this with my conformity comments. Having a rescuable pet dog in Spelunky doesn't exactly do much. Is it better then nothing? Sure. But it's one of those things that feels added for the sake of issues arising, not because of thought and care.

 

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I genuinely have no idea what point you're making here, if any.

 

Mainly that it can be said that Tomb Raider had to turn to realism at some point anyway, in my view. By that I mean slightly more human/realistic people. And because it had competition to deal with to stay relevant. (Uncharted)

 

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This is a huge oversimplification of the issue, so no, it's not correct.

Everything any content creator puts out there to be consumed is opening that work up to be examined and criticised. If you've made a game that has leery camera angles on all the women's arses, then yes, you're going to see the work criticised for its use of a sexist trope. You don't need to be a sexist person to use a sexist trope, and most of the time it's done simply out of habit because you exist in a world where such tropes are normal (which is what makes them tropes!).
Now, if you've unconsciously done something because it's normal, then you would want to know about that, as a former Fable-developer and forum member (TheBag, is it? Sorry, can't remember the name) amongst others, can attest. Because nobody wants to put derivative lazy tropes in a piece of work. Lazy tropes are shit, unless you intend to use them in an ironic sort of way.

And if you genuinely did want to include leery arse-shots and did it on purpose and have no intention to change, then a bit of criticism or bad publicity probably isn't and shouldn't make any difference, because why would you give a shit?

 

Fair point on the giving a shit part, although you'd be aiming to make money and it would be in your head at some point. Sexy cigarette smoking scene, even if a dev is not particularly fond of cigs but nonetheless has a character like that it works, you'd have to work so much harder to get it right versus not having it at all.

A bit like colouring the Pokemon Jinx blue in later games rather then leaving it black, as originally intended. Do I prefer it blue, to some extent, yes. But I shouldn't care about people being offended when it had already been and done, sold millions and made it's mark on the world. That feels like it under-represents peoples experiences with the games, as small a change as it is. (Though to be fair, still black in the Red/Blue re-releases, but that can also be seen as laziness and a rom dump to some degree. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.)

Life itself can be a trope sometimes, so I don't say I agree with the lazy tropes argument. The way we perceive things may change but that only means new things that are repeated ad fidium become the new tropes. Is a constant rotating door of tropes of lets say...every 20-40 years better? (I understand most of the feminist ones being around for decades, however). There will always be some 'thing' that's done a tad too much in it's time and replaced with another. In that sense, is anything being fixed?

 

 

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1) "Don't do as much as claimed". Claimed by who? How much do you think these things are being claimed to do? The only one making grand claims here appears to be you.
2) "Entire videos". There's one TvW video devoted to the one topic of the overuse of leery bum shots as a recurring theme in games.
3) "Their removal being pointless". For the last time, nobody is demanding the removal of bum shots from games. The point is to raise awareness of a trope so that content-creators can make better decisions. The end goal may be "fewer bums shots in future", which is not entirely pointless if it means women are better represented for attributes other than their bums.

 

1) My opinion of course when I say don't do claimed as much, admittedly shouldn't word things that way, Boodles pointed out as much months back.

2) Entire videos on things so small, rather. Earlier videos seemed meatier.

3) See 1 for wording. Beauty is an attribute. Whilst less overt camera is welcome, I don't think it fixes much as female heroines will always tend to be drawn beautiful, and that beauty will always be shown to some extent. It can be more adjustable in movies as movies can be about everything, but in video games where you are usually trying to achieve a goal with a said character, it's harder to present attributes in more sensible light. Hence my 'it's kind of pointless'. Especially when for many, gameplay and fun come first. Then visual spectacle. Maybe not every dev is the same way but I'd want to constantly impress/wow the player any way I can.

 

Does that mean I can be a little mindful of the camera though even with beautiful heroes? Certainly. But I'd probably get critic either way, which let's face it, can hurt the feelings of devs as much as the players that are apparently affected. Frustrating, but a part of life, would probably be the response to that.

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