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Cyberpunk 2077 - Delayed to 10th December 2020


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Regardless of the final game, the marketing has definitely been problematic and there's a sense that they don't want to push out the edge-lord following they've clearly accrued. They'd downplayed the original trans ad issue by saying it's part of a game fiction that's horrible and exploitative, only to use it again now in their real-life promotion with this cosplay thing, which by their own logic makes them similarly horrible and exploitative. It leaves a bad taste at the very least.

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17 minutes ago, RubberJohnny said:

it's people earnestly trying to be inclusive and do more and better representation


Then they need try a lot harder and acknowledge when they’ve clearly and repeatedly missed the mark.

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What makes you think they won't?

 

It's weird to see this implication that they're oblivious or downright malicious bigots when all the people claiming that last time were proven wrong and never acknowledged it and went right back to ploughing the same furrow while CDProjejtReds actual actions have been listening to complaints and doing better, like the Witcher 3 got some complaints over minority representation and they addressed it in the DLCs.

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If it was just the poster then id absolutely give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are trying to make a comment on it which will only become clear when you play the game.

 

But when your Twitter account is making terf jokes and you're giving costume awards to said problematic poster I'm a little less inclined to give them a pass. 

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The twitter comments made by those people at CDPR were awful and I believe at least one of them has been fired and an apology has been issued on behalf of the others. Does this show that there may be people with that frame of mind working there? Absolutely. And CDPR should be on top of it as much as they can. Does this prove that the company is transphobic, as the resetera post states? No, not really. 

 

The post is eloquent and well researched by it fails to be objective enough. The argument that there is no depth to the character in the ad poster makes little sense. Ads do not have meaning and do not have depth. That is why they are ads. Their goal is for us to project ourselves in them and tell us the lies we need to hear or show us the images we crave to see. For a world like Cyberpunk an ad like that makes absolute sense, no matter how dark and twisted it is. Humanity as a product in the most shallow depiction possible is what generally drives the concept of the world.

 

The argument about CDPR being transphobic because Poland in total is having a crisis around this important issue is also a tremendous reach. The same with the "manticore". It is also amazing for me to see the company being accused of sexism because of certain moments in their games without taking into account the fact that they have some of the most complex and powerful female characters in their games. It is this one sided approach which drags down posts like the one in resetera.

 

I really hope CDPR gets their act together on the things they are doing wrong, but that post goes to the extremes with its assumptions and therefore loses much of its potency. 

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Regarding the "Chromanticore" poster, collating a few posts these there's something I am confused by people's perception here and feel like perhaps something has been missed. Apologies if I've misread the people I'm quoting...

 

Quote

Just with respect to the ads, isn’t the whole point that they’re all crass and exploitative? You know, the sort of stuff you’d expect in a dystopian hellscape?

48 minutes ago, Talk Show Host said:

That is why they are ads. Their goal is for us to project ourselves in them and tell us the lies we need to hear or show us the images we crave to see. For a world like Cyberpunk an ad like that makes absolute sense, no matter how dark and twisted it is

 

The context here is everything. In a world of adjectives like 'exploitative', 'dystopian' or 'dark and twisted' to me, demonstrates the reason why it's transphobic.

In very simple terms it's basically saying "Woman with penis = weird, abominable, twisted".  It's bundled up amongst the general themes of cyberpunk stories, which is that we've augmented and warped our bodies in a way that's usually portrayed as bad and 'too far'.

I'm not necessarily making the statement that all this is transphobic enough to warrant a boycott, or that it's a prime example of pure hate. I accept that there are degrees, but this idea that they're trying to represent the trans community well put slapping a trans person a poster like that is, well, ill thought out at best. 

 

To put it in shorter terms, perhaps, y'know, a game about freaky augmented people shooting each other wasn't the best place for a bunch of cis people to try and depict trans people?

If I am honest, I think it got signed off because deep down they think trans people are indeed weird, and the tweets and the cosplay thing demonstrates that too.

 

It's like the archetypal panto dame. It feels like a rather tame bit of slapstick, but they're generally formed around a very basic joke: A man dressed as a woman is funny. I use that example because if that's still going on in pantos it is mild, sure.

But we can have mild racial slurs like saying "coloured fellow" is not the same as a KKK rally. But it's still racist, it's still something that needs to be called out and potentially boycotted if you truly want to be an ally and help make a better world for your trans friends.

 

So on this point:

4 hours ago, RubberJohnny said:

I think the guarantee with doing any trans depiction is that you're going to be controversial because no one is on the same page about what they want

 

I don't think generally trans people wanted to be depicted as examples of a 'dark and twisted' vision of the future. I don't think that's rocket science, and no, I don't think you guarantee controversy depicting trans people - beyond the controversy that results in transphobic people complaining. 

 

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9 minutes ago, cowfields said:

To put it in shorter terms, perhaps, y'know, a game about freaky augmented people shooting each other wasn't the best place for a bunch of cis people to try and depict trans people?

 

 

Your solution to this supposedly transphobic poster is to dictate to the artist where and when things should be allowed? The poster makes sense for the world its in in my opinion and as an ad it needs no other context than what we get in real life as well. Its dark and suggestive theme is precisely the point.

 

If there is indeed a correlation of many things like this in the game and a transphobic pattern arises, then absolutely the use of this ad will be revealed as shameful and transphobic. So let us wait and see if the game is anything like that first. 

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13 minutes ago, cowfields said:

I don't think generally trans people wanted to be depicted as examples of a 'dark and twisted' vision of the future. I don't think that's rocket science, and no, I don't think you guarantee controversy depicting trans people - beyond the controversy that results in transphobic people complaining. 

 

This is a well written out post, but it's worth noting that the posts saying "dark, twisted" or whatever come entirely from people in here, and absolutely not from the game or from the developers, but at some point in this post you transpose your criticism of those arguments being problematic with the game itself being problematic due to arguments only made on here, which doesn't make much sense.

 

The actual text of the poster literally just has the name of the product "Chromanticore", a slogan "Mix it Up" and then another slogan saying they've got a bunch of flavours, there's no "dark, twisted" anywhere. And everything else in that post about the poster seems very much like reaching, like claiming "chrome" means "chromosome" in a game where people supplant their skin with chrome. 

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I fully appreciate that the creators didn't use those adjectives but I raised them as they really are the obvious response to the world of cyberpunk, and what cyberpunk generally is as a theme. 

 

I guess I am saying because of all this, considering the context, it's insensitive at best to choose that moment to "represent a trans person". 

 

I'll reserve full judgement until I've heard more from trans people about how it makes them feel though. 

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I'd disagree with that, Cyberpunk as a theme is about the 80s but amplified, a retro-futuristic setting at this point.

 

The game they've shown is colourful and pretty conventional, as opposed to dark and twisted. Mike Pondsmith has never described it dark or twisted, so this all seems to be your own interpretation.

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7 minutes ago, Opinionated Ham Scarecrow said:

At this point I think outrage Era does more to radicalise people than it does educate. It's just a wall of people being so offended at everything and shouting so loudly that the real issues just get washed up in all the noise.

 

It is one of the main problems of that post. It actually creates more polarization than education, even though it is important for it exist based on the things that CDPR has actually done wrong.

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Well, the reactions to the post I linked started well, but we've devolved into cake-and-eat-it responses like (paraphrasing) "we'll have to play the game to find out, and they have sorted stuff out in the past with their DLC". Or "this is just outrage culture". Nice work.

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3 minutes ago, jonamok said:

Well, the reactions to the post I linked started well, but we've devolved into cake-and-eat-it responses like (paraphrasing) "we'll have to play the game to find out, and they have sorted stuff out in the past with their DLC". Or "this is just outrage culture". Nice work.

 

If we were aiming for different things you would be right. 

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Yep, like most of us I’ve also waited years and years. I’ve been playing tabletop CP2020 for years and years too. It’s my favourite fictional genre. The PC I’m building was even specced specifically to make this sing. I’m still conflicted as fuck. All trivial in the context of course.

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I have basically been ignoring everything about the game so its all fresh. 

 

What is going on? Are CDPR a bunch of cunts now or something?

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One particular allegation of CDPR 'pandering to the alt right' seemed to be based on a random screenshot of some non affiliated right wing knuckledraggers commenting ideological cringe on twitter. I'd argue this is awarding these incel dorks an undeserving credibility of influence. CDPR are not nazis are they, at worst they come across as ignorant of trans issues. Many people in our society are. They can be won over to supporting trans rights with reasoned argument and honest education not tedious culture warring. Cancelling an unreleased videogame they might like the look of isn't going to win them over. 

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1 hour ago, Ry said:

I have basically been ignoring everything about the game so its all fresh. 

 

What is going on? Are CDPR a bunch of cunts now or something?


You could read the last few pages of the thread.

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One major problem with resetera is that people there try to "out holy" each other. The constant screaming at one another saying "This offends me!" followed by "This offends me even more!" and if someone isn't quite as offended then they get dog piled and told that they should be more offended. It's like an ideological purity test.

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16 minutes ago, pulsemyne said:

One major problem with resetera is that people there try to "out holy" each other. The constant screaming at one another saying "This offends me!" followed by "This offends me even more!" and if someone isn't quite as offended then they get dog piled and told that they should be more offended. It's like an ideological purity test.

 

It's because if you to raise some of the issues raised in this thread, like "wow it's a bit offensive to say that because they're from Eastern Europe it's going to be bigoted, as if all art is tainted by the worst problems of the country it is from and can never criticise its' government or culture or rise above it" in response then you'd be banned for "downplaying the issue". Without the actual ability for disagreement, there's only one direction a conversation can go and it's a circlejerk where everyone has to talk it up instead.

 

I get they had some trouble in the past and want to distance themselves from their origin, but they've ended up with a weird community where you never see two people actually engage with each other and discuss anything and most threads are just a parade of people coming in, posting a hot take based on the title and leaving.

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Can't say I feel particularly paralysed, to be honest, but if you want to interpret 'no ethical consumption under capitalism' as meaning you can't make any ethical choices when it comes to luxury item purchases then I guess that's up to you.

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  • Goose changed the title to Cyberpunk 2077 - Delayed to 10th December 2020

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