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Cyberpunk 2077 - Delayed to 10th December 2020


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Or maybe some people don't like/can't play games in the First Person perspective? Developers are free to choose whatever fucking format or way to interact with their entertainment products they like, the potential customer can also choose to not buy said product if it doesn't meet their requirements. I wonder what a first person Mass Effect would be like and how that would change that series :)

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36 minutes ago, mushashi said:

Or maybe some people don't like/can't play games in the First Person perspective?

Yeah, it makes my friend painfully motion sick, so he's already out. I appreciate it adds to the immersion though. That's my preferred method of controlling SW BF, but everyone goes 3rd person to get the advantage.

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34 minutes ago, mushashi said:

Or maybe some people don't like/can't play games in the First Person perspective? Developers are free to choose whatever fucking format or way to interact with their entertainment products they like, the potential customer can also choose to not buy said product if it doesn't meet their requirements. I wonder what a first person Mass Effect would be like and how that would change that series :)

 

I desperately want to see this contingent of console owners who don't play first person games. 
 

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For PC players, it'll take about two minutes to mod a third person mode in and realise it doesn't work because the whole game is designed around using skills and items and exploring in first person. 

 

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PC player, grew up playing Quake and Doom, prefer 3rd person thanks. It's not that I won't play first person games but I find them weirdly claustrophobic. Maybe it's just too much WoW over the years but I find third person far more immersive and just feels better in terms of spacial awareness and movement. Skills and Items sounds like a shit excuse really but I can see how they might prefer first person if the environments are really dense and cramped and there isn't a lot of room to mess around with a third person camera.

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That's what I was thinking as well.  The city's density in some areas may have caused camera issues and was better suited for first person.

 

Also, your HUD is based on cybernetic enhancements, so maybe they wanted it to feel like it was apart of you.

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Hmmm. Are people conflating 'immersive' with 'atmospheric' or perhaps even 'cinematic'? My two favourite RPGs are Skyrim, and the Mass Effect trilogy. 

 

Mass Effect is third person, and is genuinely brilliant. I love the characters and the story, the setting, the whole shebang. They're my favourite games of all time. But do I find them an "immersive" experience? Not really. Cinematic, yes; immersive, nope. 

 

Skyrim on the other hand, for all its faults, still remains one of the most immersive games I have ever played, and I play it exclusively in first person. And that's even before the revelation that is Skyrim VR. 

 

I simply can't agree with anyone who says third-person games are immersive. There's an additional level of separation between player and character that is a clear obstacle to immersion. 

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I guess immersive is not only about perspective, at least for me. It has more to do with how convincing the environment is, the NPCs' reactions, the scope and detail. I find Skyrim completely immersion breaking because nothing makes sense in the game world, from scale to NPC AI to quest design, etc, even though I generally find first person to be more immersive. 

 

On the other hand I thought Mass Effect was clearly one of the most immersive games I had ever played. Lore, characters, locations, everything felt tight and right making the world feel real. Then W3 came and took immersion to another level completely by showing how important writing and delivery is to transport the player to another world. 

 

And they are both 3rd person games. 

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45 minutes ago, Thor said:

Hmmm. Are people conflating 'immersive' with 'atmospheric' or perhaps even 'cinematic'? My two favourite RPGs are Skyrim, and the Mass Effect trilogy. 

 

Mass Effect is third person, and is genuinely brilliant. I love the characters and the story, the setting, the whole shebang. They're my favourite games of all time. But do I find them an "immersive" experience? Not really. Cinematic, yes; immersive, nope. 

 

Skyrim on the other hand, for all its faults, still remains one of the most immersive games I have ever played, and I play it exclusively in first person. And that's even before the revelation that is Skyrim VR. 

 

I simply can't agree with anyone who says third-person games are immersive. There's an additional level of separation between player and character that is a clear obstacle to immersion. 

 

Theres a problem with FPS perspective that, in some cases, the chosen FOV makes some of us motion sick. Not a problem in Titanfall. Significant problem for me with the latest Wolfenstein game.

 

whereas there’s no problem whatsoever with third person perspectives.

 

but lucky’s tale or Moss in VR (less so edge of nowhere) might help satisfy you immersion issues...

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13 minutes ago, footle said:

 

Theres a problem with FPS perspective that, in some cases, the chosen FOV makes some of us motion sick. Not a problem in Titanfall. Significant problem for me with the latest Wolfenstein game.

 

whereas there’s no problem whatsoever with third person perspectives.

 

but lucky’s tale or Moss in VR (less so edge of nowhere) might help satisfy you immersion issues...

 

The motion sickness thing in FPS drives me nuts - most of the time I'm absolutely fine, but I was unable to play the latest Doom game for more than 15 minutes before feeling decidedly awful. 

 

But Wolfenstein 2 was fine.

 

I do wonder what triggers these things - hopefully not all the bright colours and shit, as I suspect Cyberpunk might leave me blind...

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Some interesting points.

 

Quote

 

immersive

adjective

adjective: immersive

(of a computer display or system) generating a three-dimensional image which appears to surround the user.

 

 

Surround the user, not character controlled by the user. I've always found first-person games to be more immersive. That being said, there are several games, where a third person perspective is clearly the best option: Uncharted and GTA spring to mind. GTA V is a great example, because there's a perfectly good first-person mode in the game. But I hate it. Why? Lack of agency. The three characters are what they are, with very little in the way of roleplay. Why the hell would I want to literally see through the eyes of a deranged serial killer?  No thanks, I like those experiences at more of a distance. Sometimes, often even, that extra level of separation is needed. 

 

The opposite of that are games like Resident Evil 7, and PT. Capcom switched to first-person for the first time with 7 (I think ... am I wrong?), why?  Not just for VR, but for the immersion factor. Look at PT. I finished it, but it's utterly terrifying and unsettling. Would these games work in third person? They would, but nowhere near as well. Then there are games that simply would lose immersion to a fault in third person: Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, a stunningly immersive game, would be utterly pants in third person. It would not work. At all.

 

@Talk Show Host The Witcher 3 is an interesting one. Yes, you can put your own spin on Geralt, but at the end of the day, it's still Geralt's story, not yours. My guess is CDPR switched to first-person to achieve the level of immersion required for the role-playing experience they're going for, where you are the character. And also because CDPR are rubbish at third-person combat. #ohnohedidnt!

 

@footle You raise a good point regarding the FOV and motion sickness, I really feel for those who can't play certain games because of these issues. For some reason Mass Effect 1(!) completely wipes my brother out. :(  As for Moss in VR, that's a different kettle of fish altogether, because both the player and character are very much in the game. I feel it's an unfair comparison. As an aside, I'm cautiously excited at the possibility of Cyberpunk 2077 in VR somewhere down the road. 

 

All that being said, and despite me busting out google's dictionary definition, perhaps immersion is more subjective than I first thought. But I'll stand by my argument, as I feel CDPR made the right choice thematically. 

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9 minutes ago, JoeK said:

 

The motion sickness thing in FPS drives me nuts - most of the time I'm absolutely fine, but I was unable to play the latest Doom game for more than 15 minutes before feeling decidedly awful. 

 

But Wolfenstein 2 was fine.

 

I do wonder what triggers these things - hopefully not all the bright colours and shit, as I suspect Cyberpunk might leave me blind...

 

Ditto with Doom. Wolfenstein 2 might have been ok if I’d forced my way through but I have a very low tolerance for boredom in November and December...

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The Giant Bomb guys talk about it at length here. They're incredibly excited and they mention a few little things I hadn't seen in other reports, such as the way the characters speak - "The Aaron Sorkin of Cyberpunk slang" should be on the box. It sounds surprisingly complete. They also touch on the benefit of it being in first person. Terminator vision, man! 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JoeK said:

 

The motion sickness thing in FPS drives me nuts - most of the time I'm absolutely fine, but I was unable to play the latest Doom game for more than 15 minutes before feeling decidedly awful. 

 

But Wolfenstein 2 was fine.

 

I do wonder what triggers these things - hopefully not all the bright colours and shit, as I suspect Cyberpunk might leave me blind...


Doom is a weird one for me. When I'm jumping around the level shooting demons, everything's fine. But when I clear a level of enemies and start hopping through the empty levels to search for secrets, motion sickness hits me like a truck. I can't play Mirror's Edge for more than 5 minutes either. Apart from those, no problems in first person so I should be fine with Cyberpunk.

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8 hours ago, Thor said:

Some interesting points.

 

 

Surround the user, not character controlled by the user. I've always found first-person games to be more immersive. That being said, there are several games, where a third person perspective is clearly the best option: Uncharted and GTA spring to mind. GTA V is a great example, because there's a perfectly good first-person mode in the game. But I hate it. Why? Lack of agency. The three characters are what they are, with very little in the way of roleplay. Why the hell would I want to literally see through the eyes of a deranged serial killer?  No thanks, I like those experiences at more of a distance. Sometimes, often even, that extra level of separation is needed. 

 

The opposite of that are games like Resident Evil 7, and PT. Capcom switched to first-person for the first time with 7 (I think ... am I wrong?), why?  Not just for VR, but for the immersion factor. Look at PT. I finished it, but it's utterly terrifying and unsettling. Would these games work in third person? They would, but nowhere near as well. Then there are games that simply would lose immersion to a fault in third person: Everybody's Gone to the Rapture, a stunningly immersive game, would be utterly pants in third person. It would not work. At all.

 

@Talk Show Host The Witcher 3 is an interesting one. Yes, you can put your own spin on Geralt, but at the end of the day, it's still Geralt's story, not yours. My guess is CDPR switched to first-person to achieve the level of immersion required for the role-playing experience they're going for, where you are the character. And also because CDPR are rubbish at third-person combat. #ohnohedidnt!

 

@footle You raise a good point regarding the FOV and motion sickness, I really feel for those who can't play certain games because of these issues. For some reason Mass Effect 1(!) completely wipes my brother out. :(  As for Moss in VR, that's a different kettle of fish altogether, because both the player and character are very much in the game. I feel it's an unfair comparison. As an aside, I'm cautiously excited at the possibility of Cyberpunk 2077 in VR somewhere down the road. 

 

All that being said, and despite me busting out google's dictionary definition, perhaps immersion is more subjective than I first thought. But I'll stand by my argument, as I feel CDPR made the right choice thematically. 

 

I have no problem with the 1st person perspective myself, I find it generally more immersive, but the dictionary definition you put out really makes little sense in an audio visual experience, which is central to the whole... experience. If you have a game with very little detail, for example, it will be less immersive for the player compared to one with a much more detail in its world. That is simply common sense in my opinion and that is why Skyrim fails for me. 

 

W3 makes me feel part of the world by making the world feel alive in a myriad ways, that is what immersion is, regardless of perspective. And Mass Effect did the same (by using different ways as well). 

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@Wiper Unfortunately it's the downside of our industry, but CD's approach compared to other companies like Rockstar is much less problematic. Don't forget that the company is founded in Poland, where working culture is very bad, and they are one of the few tech companies there which offer such benefits as paid overtime and bonuses. There were also many reports after the end of W3 which I didn't particularly enjoy myself, but as a "corporation" they treat customers with respect, something possibly extinct today. 

 

My biggest concern is that the reported problems are also part of them growing way too fast and that their CEO looks like a meddling idiot and responsible for much of the development drama and the redesigns. These are also factors which contribute greatly to overtime and the delays. It's easy to forget but the company has only released three games until today and they started as a CD distributor with no experience on game development or running a business with such a growth rate. 

 

I really hope they show more support on making the lives of their employees much better, especially now that they seem ready to take over the world, but it's the really global publishers and developers which need to lead the charge, if we hope to see some more changes for the better as an industry. 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Wiper said:

Anyway, aside from that, a bit of a downer - not regarding the quality of the game, but one which makes me a little less happy about CD Projekt as a company - comes courtesy of an interview they did with Le Monde. The interview is over here  (in French), but the bit which bothered me in particular is a section in which they're asked about unions/worker's rights in game development. I've translated it as best I can - my French is a bit rusty and I've attempted to keep the translation more literal than literary, so it reads a little clunkily in places; hopefully it's still clear enough:

 

 

I mean, none of this is particularly unusual in the generally-union-unfriendly world of game development, but it's still disappointing to see espoused - particularly by a studio working on a cyberpunk game. As in, if I see someone working on a game set in a dystopia of ultra-capitalist horror where corporations rule, I sort of hope it's being informed by people with attitudes that are opposed to a world where company interests trump individuals' rights and welfare. Also, as a general rule, I hate the 'unions are only for lower-paid/skilled workers' argument, so seeing that one wheeled out annoyed me all the more.

 

Again, hardly unusual in this industry, and not really surprising, but I was still disappointed.

 

The original French:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 


En début d’année, des employés du studio français Eugen Systems se sont mis en grève pendant plus d’un mois. En mars s’est créée aux Etats-Unis la Game Workers Unite, une structure de défense des intérêts des employés de l’industrie du jeu vidéo. Que pensez-vous de ces initiatives ?

A. B. : C’est un travail très difficile, tout le monde le sait, et des améliorations sont toujours possibles. Mais je ne sais pas si les syndicats peuvent y contribuer. On devrait trouver nos propres solutions.

M. I. : C’est ce qu’on fait ! C’est vrai qu’on fait beaucoup d’heures supplémentaires, et quand des gens rejoignent la société, on les prévient que ce n’est vraiment pas évident. Sortir un jeu c’est, à chaque fois, aussi dur que si on envoyait des gens sur Mars. Mais s’il y a des syndicats, on fait quoi ? On ne décolle plus ? A l’origine, les syndicats ont été créés pour protéger les travailleurs peu payés, non ? Ces gars-là ne sont pas des travailleurs peu payés, ce sont des professionnels extrêmement qualifiés.

A. B. : Je pense que ça change pour le mieux. Par exemple, avant, l’industrie ne payait pas les heures supplémentaires.

M. I. : C’est vraiment du sang, de la sueur et des larmes. Depuis l’extérieur, l’industrie du jeu vidéo semble être une grande « success story ». Les gens qui ne connaissent pas l’industrie pensent que tout est rose. C’est vraiment très, très dur, et les gens qui décident de faire carrière dans ce business doivent régulièrement faire beaucoup de sacrifices.

A. B. : Mais quand on lance un jeu, une bande-annonce, une démo, il faut voir les réactions. Aujourd’hui, à Varsovie, au siège de CD Projekt, il y a de la joie, du bruit, et tout le monde est heureux !

 

 

 

I'm not saying this isn't disappointing, but I passed up a position at CDPR five years ago and in all meetings got nothing other than great responses about them as employers. Certainly a cut above many others, but yes the bar should be higher across the board.

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