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Game of Thrones - No Book Chat. NONE. The Books don't exist.


Daley
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The problem for me isn't that GRRM left them with no story because to be fair the big plot beats are good. Dany going from innocent girl to genocidal maniac is a good arc. They just screwed the landing. They knew what they had to do to tell a good story but it's pretty clear that they didn't want to stick around long enough to tell it properly, so they rushed through the last two seasons. That's why I have a hard time having any sympathy for them.

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57 minutes ago, Broker said:

The only people who thing fan fiction is better are the ones who wrote it.

 

Not all criticism should be conflated with poor correctional fanfic. Take that image on the last page of the Scorpions and make it known that they can't aim that far downwards, for example. It's still a bad scene (and a tactical oversight had Drogon swept low), but that would've been one problem solved with it.

 

Writing it around where characters need to be to advance play is okay if you stop to explain why said moves are viable. Why is Varys utterly careless after years of masterful scheming (Littlefinger, too)? Why is Arya suddenly Boris Bond?

 

I think it's shit the bed mildly enough to inspire defence as a reaction to the overreaction of calling it the worst thing ever.

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It's similar to what happened with the West Wing. It was a shadow of its former self once its creator left, but still worth watching if you were invested in the characters. 

 

I've enjoyed parts of series 8 but it hasnt reached the heights of previous years.

 

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5 hours ago, Broker said:

 

I don’t think that’s fair. They were hired to adapt books into a TV show and they did a spectacular job of that. Nobody ever asked them to write this story, and assuming GRRM isn’t way more honest with them than he is the rest of the world they were probably receiving the same assurances as everyone else that it was coming along well. At the point where it became obvious that wouldn’t happening, they’re being asked to write a decent ending for a story that the original author hasn’t managed to work out with fifteen years to do it.

 

People can say that anything would be better, but the vast majority of “improvements” suggested on here, twitter and Reddit are garbage far worse than anything in the show. The only people who think fan fiction is better are the ones who wrote it.

 

I do not agree with that. But even if it is like that, D&D are also getting paid to provide a good and coherent show. Almost none of their big choices in the last two episodes make much sense to me (the same with the plan to get an undead). The NK was their creation, they should at least have a plan to tie all his threads properly.

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Obviously Arya’s story is going to be totally different in the books...

 



and I think it’s linked to Nymeria

 

but DnD needed a reason for all that ninja training. Killing the NK was probably the best option.

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That, and all those gruesome murders Arya committed were clearly foreshadowing to her turning evil in the finale and brutally killing everyone in winterfell for no reason. If you didn't think it would happen you clearly haven't been paying attention!

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Arya is actually one of the most morally ambiguous characters in both mediums. She has murdered a lot of people and generally gets a pass because we don't like them. But it's morally shakey ground, and straight up revenge as a motive is one of them things that can have a cost.

 

The show has, probably, settled where it falls on the question. Buy if it does a volte face I think it'll be another one of those 'pacing, not destination' issues. 

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7 hours ago, Broker said:

 

I don’t think that’s fair. They were hired to adapt books into a TV show and they did a spectacular job of that. Nobody ever asked them to write this story, and assuming GRRM isn’t way more honest with them than he is the rest of the world they were probably receiving the same assurances as everyone else that it was coming along well. At the point where it became obvious that wouldn’t happening, they’re being asked to write a decent ending for a story that the original author hasn’t managed to work out with fifteen years to do it.

 

Im not sure that’s true at all. Didn’t d&d approach Martin themselves and effectively pitch the series personally and how they wanted to present it. Martin was impressed with their knowledge of the material and therefore gave them sole ownership of the adaptation. Therefore I’d argue they knew exactly what they were getting into. Once it became clear that they were going to run out of source material, I’m sure they had unprecedented access to grrm for info and direction.

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So I've been reading and watching a lot this week from both sides of the argument and I get that people say Danys done cold and evil things before and she'll take what is hers with fire & blood and that's all the foreshadowing we needed right there.

 

But what about everything good she's said and done, do we just ignore that?

Shes constantly saying she's not her father and she intends to leave the world better than where he left it. Saying that she had 200,000 reasons to stay and help Yunki when she learnt about the slaves. She delayed her trip to Westeros to do some good for innocent people when she didn't have to.

 

Some quotes of hers too

 

"I'm not here to be Queen of the ashes"

"The blood of my enemies, not the blood of the innocents"

"I'm here to free the world from Tyrants"

 

I dunno, this may have always been where GRRM was heading all along, but I'm still struggling to get behind D&D's reasoning of how it was presented in the last episode. She's done bad things before but always to her enemies. This is why I hate how she decided to just decimate the city after less than half an episodes worth of loss and betrayal.

I still can't get behind her reasoning for killing all those people who did nothing wrong because people in the North, hundreds of miles away from KL like Jon more than her.

 

Foreshadowing isn't development and that what's crucially been missing in all this.

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I'm in a similar place. I could see her losing it and taking out the red keep and anyone in the way but to go systematically, street by street, like that is quite extreme! 

 

I thought it was a cracking episode, though, and some stunning scenes. I enjoyed it more on second viewing when I could drink it all in without thinking so much about what might or might not happen next.

 

I loved Qyburn's end. 

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Maybe the problem is that she was always set to reclaim her throne.  Not take it.  With Jon in place she had nothing to claim, and therefore no legitimate leverage; she isn't trusted and the not so thinly veiled racism that Cersei expresses about The Unsullied and the Dothraki speaks to her as well as an outsider.

 

She's always been about the Throne.  It's not at surprising as it may seem.

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5 hours ago, Stigweard said:

So I've been reading and watching a lot this week from both sides of the argument and I get that people say Danys done cold and evil things before and she'll take what is hers with fire & blood and that's all the foreshadowing we needed right there.

 

But what about everything good she's said and done, do we just ignore that?

Shes constantly saying she's not her father and she intends to leave the world better than where he left it. Saying that she had 200,000 reasons to stay and help Yunki when she learnt about the slaves. She delayed her trip to Westeros to do some good for innocent people when she didn't have to.

 

Some quotes of hers too

 

"I'm not here to be Queen of the ashes"

"The blood of my enemies, not the blood of the innocets"

"I'm here to free the world from Tyrants"

 

I dunno, this may have always been where GRRM was heading all along, but I'm still struggling to get behind D&D's reasoning of how it was presented in the last episode. She's done bad things before but always to her enemies. This is why I hate how she decided to just decimate the city after less than half an episodes worth of loss and betrayal.

I still can't get behind her reasoning for killing all those people who did nothing wrong because people in the North, hundreds of miles away from KL like Jon more than her.

 

Foreshadowing isn't development and that what's crucially been missing in all this.

 

Have you considered that she’s full of shit?

 

Varys covered your argument in his chat with Tyrian. He’s known many kings, and they all said the same shit.

 

she is tyrant. “If they won’t love me, then they will fear me”.

 

she has the blood innocents on here hands as much as any.

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1 hour ago, probotector said:

 

Have you considered that she’s full of shit?

 

Varys covered your argument in his chat with Tyrian. He’s known many kings, and they all said the same shit.

 

she is tyrant. “If they won’t love me, then they will fear me”.

 

she has the blood innocents on here hands as much as any.

 

That's not what I'm getting at. She spent over 7 seasons defeating her enemies and helping the innocent to just change all that at the drop of a hat. I would be perfectly fine with the turn if it made any sense, but it doesn't. After spending all that time being who she was to just kill everyone in what comes across as a petulant fit. This is my issue with it. Show us more than just her having dark tired eyes and being upset for 10 minutes.

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She's never been genocidal. If she had went to the Red Keep and completely destroyed it, civilians and all, you could have bought it. It would have been enough, narratively too. 

 

Instead she went block by block levelling Kings Landing. The only thing they missed was the ash forming a little Hitler tache on her upper lip. 

 

Again, no one is saying it's completely out there as an idea. Just the execution was rushed and bollocks. 

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I thought it was quite clever how they showed that the Mountain had the ability to shield people from falling rubble. Hence Clegainebowl actually played a part in the plot, rather than just being fan service. If the Hound hadn't turned up at that point and separated Cersei from Gregor, then Gregor could potentially have saved her (and Jamie) when the roof caved in on them. 

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9 minutes ago, kensei said:

She's never been genocidal. If she had went to the Red Keep and completely destroyed it, civilians and all, you could have bought it. It would have been enough, narratively too. 

 

Instead she went block by block levelling Kings Landing. The only thing they missed was the ash forming a little Hitler tache on her upper lip. 

 

Again, no one is saying it's completely out there as an idea. Just the execution was rushed and bollocks. 

 

I mean, the post I replied to was asking why we shouldn’t take all the things she’s been saying at face value, so I was pointing out that she’s basically been trained as a politicians for her whole life and is good at spinning what she’s doing to sell it to people. But her actions tell the story of someone violent who justifies those actions retrospectively when they often actually seem like angry whims. Given her stated feelings that her claim is insecure because of Jon, and her assertion that she could rule by love or fear, followed by Jon rejecting her love and symbolically acting as a rejection by the people of Westeros, it seems pretty clear that her motivation is making people scared of her to secure her role as queen. The moment with the bells is her deciding that they don’t fear her enough, that they’re  weak and will fear anyone who is strong enough to take the city. So she wants to show them that she is stronger and scarier than anyone else, to secure their fear and her throne.

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Even Tories would have a hard time going from "I'll not be Queen of the ashes" to brining every person in sight. She's not just destroying her city, she's destroying her self image. 

 

If people can buy it, great. Didn't work for me as presented. 

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I wonder how they are going to get out of the hole they've dug for themselves that has left it looking like the next episode might be basically righteous white people defending their homeland against fanatical, invading brown people. As I can't see the Unsullied and Dothraki turning against Dani at this stage. 

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22 minutes ago, kensei said:

She's never been genocidal. If she had went to the Red Keep and completely destroyed it, civilians and all, you could have bought it. It would have been enough, narratively too. 

 

Instead she went block by block levelling Kings Landing. The only thing they missed was the ash forming a little Hitler tache on her upper lip. 

 

Again, no one is saying it's completely out there as an idea. Just the execution was rushed and bollocks. 

I thought the execution was well done, to be honest.

Her last friends had died or betrayed her and the very last close friend had died in a brutal manner, which would make her angry enough, and their last words was, “burn them all”.

So yeah, I think the way it all played out was fine.

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18 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

I thought it was quite clever how they showed that the Mountain had the ability to shield people from falling rubble. Hence Clegainebowl actually played a part in the plot, rather than just being fan service. If the Hound hadn't turned up at that point and separated Cersei from Gregor, then Gregor could potentially have saved her (and Jamie) when the roof caved in on them. 

 

I'm not sure that even the Mountain could wiggle his way out from under the weight of the Red Keep.

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5 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

I wonder how they are going to get out of the hole they've dug for themselves that has left it looking like the next episode might be basically righteous white people defending their homeland against fanatical, invading brown people. As I can't see the Unsullied and Dothraki turning against Dani at this stage. 

 

I'm sure that'll be top of the list of reasons that people hate the finale. 

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Again people are focussing on the acts she committed and NOT to the people she did them too. All of them were her enemies, non of them innocent people trying to protect themselves from invaders.

 

Theres a difference between killing your enemies when they stand in your way to flipping like a switch and becoming a genocidal maniac.

 

DEVELOPMENT is the key word here that everyone's missing. No one is arguing that it was all coming to this, the issues here was there was zero development between her being the mhysa, breaker of chains, queen of the people to Hitler. 

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You're forgetting her burning people alive for not bending the knee after simply defending their homeland. Or that woman who had her family destroyed who she burned alive. She's been killing people out of convenience or as a show of power for ages. She styled herself as someone "breaking chains" because it suited her and gave her a power trip, not because she ever gave a shit about anything that didn't help her. Burning Sam's dad and brother was pretty dark. I can easily see anyone doing that having little regard for innocents later on.

 

You can tell the attitude of a likely ruler by how they treat their enemies. She's never been one for mercy. And a merciless ruler can very easily flip to becoming genocidal with the right stimulus.

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