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15 minutes ago, scottcr said:

I think it was *very* good editting that we didn't see any more of Arya after 'Not today'.  The only issue I had is that it didn't need to show Jaime, Brienne, Podrick, Gendry etc all still almost completely overwhelmed... should've focussed on Jon more... his futile run thorugh the castle as the dead just rained from the sky was amazing and then Viseryon appeared and it was like FUCK!  I think most folks also forgot that with Viseryon landing, that meant the NK was IN DA HAAS.

 

Jon should have just lobbed Long Claw at Viserion.

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1 minute ago, ckny said:

Something I just thought of; when the Night King touches Bran he was in immense pain and left badly scarred. Why wasn't Arya?

 

Because he was all toasty and warm from dragon breath.

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20 minutes ago, scottcr said:

I think most folks also forgot that with Viseryon landing, that meant the NK was IN DA HAAS.

 

The NK fell off Viseryon earlier and was walking to Winterfell on foot.

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1 minute ago, The Fox said:

 

The NK fell off Viseryon earlier and was walking to Winterfell on foot.

 

so he did.... I need to watch it a third time :)

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9 minutes ago, ckny said:

Something I just thought of; when the Night King touches Bran he was in immense pain and left badly scarred. Why wasn't Arya?

 

That was in a three-raven vision - the NK was putting a magic mark on Bran to find him.

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Bran still has some major role to play towards the end... and I don't think him warging into the ravens was him just checking out the dragon fight.  

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5 minutes ago, scottcr said:

 

so he did.... I need to watch it a third time :)

 

Haha, do you not remember the bit where Jon ran screaming at him outside the walls of Winterfell?

 

Edit: he might not have been screaming, actually. Definitely ran a lot though.

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5 hours ago, ckny said:

Something I just thought of; when the Night King touches Bran he was in immense pain and left badly scarred. Why wasn't Arya?

The Night King had Arya by one hand, but it takes two hands to do a Chinese burn like Bran got.

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3 hours ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

As for the NK,

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before the episode everyone in the world was hyped up about him and what he wants and all the mysteries and his power and how awesome he is. People didn't imagine those things, the show built them up. Claiming now, after being killed like an idiot, that he was simply a stupid villain is the definition of rose tinted glasses. 

 

 

This reads very much like you’re projecting your own feelings onto “everyone in the world”. If they wanted to explore that in more detail they’ve had the whole runtime when the walkers have been present and a threat. They’ve chosen not to, and I don’t really see how you could do something of that magnitude in one episode. I certainly don’t think their barely being in it and always having super short scenes that only ever featured basic information has built up exactly the opposite.

 

1 hour ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

Oh yes, I don't mind her killing him, just the way she did it. Such a Hollywood copout. Saying that all the prophecy stuff which were built up for seasons were also planned to distract us is just crazy, come on. 

 

Again, how has this been built up for seasons? It’s been mentioned maybe twice in the whole show, and we’ve constantly had proof that prophecies we do hear are inaccurate.

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12 minutes ago, Broker said:

Again, how has this been built up for seasons? It’s been mentioned maybe twice in the whole show, and we’ve constantly had proof that prophecies we do hear are inaccurate.

 

Just the fact that prophecies exist make this more complicated, even if they are wrong. We have seen tons of mysterious sacrifices from the NK, we have seen the WW, his ties to the history, the lore and said prophecies. No one believed before the last episode that he was such a simple villain and we wouldn't find anything about him. That was built by the show. Pretending that we all expected he was just your run of the mill evil is just daft. Even the writers themselves have said in an interview that they liked the character because he was not a simple evil guy but with the history and motives we can explore. 

 

Well, they didn't and the general development and death of him was messy and unsatisfying, imo of course. 

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I wonder if there is any significance to how....

 

Spoiler

..he died (NK)?

 

He died under that tree.  Doesn't that tree have the symbols the Wight Walkers use within its roots on the ground?  That weird swirly symbol? Maybe that makes him more susceptible and puts him into a confused or weary state, which is why Bran insisted on being under it at that specific moment.  Maybe it makes the night king more human.

 

Or maybe if he dies upon that symbol, it gives the NK a way to return..

 

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1 hour ago, scottcr said:

Bran still has some major role to play towards the end... and I don't think him warging into the ravens was him just checking out the dragon fight.  

Its been rumoured for years that Bran will warg into one of the Dragons at some point. Surprised that didnt happen in this episode to be honest.

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3 hours ago, The Fox said:

I'm pretty sure GRRM is on record as saying he dislikes tropey prophecy stuff in fantasy novels. ASOIAF is littered with them - much more so than in the TV show - and a lot of them will probably come to nothing (I presume he still puts them in there because he realises people like speculating about them). So it does sort of make sense that all the Azor Ahai stuff Melisandre harped on about for years to Stannis and Jon turned out to mean fuck all.

 

GRRM fucking loves prophecy. The Red Wedding is there multiple times prior to happening in the books, you just don't want to believe it. It's not the only thing, either. I have no doubt that Azor Ahai / The Prince That Was Promised will be very significant in the books. With a twist, but there is no way it'll be basically ignored as it was here. 

 

But this is the TV Show. They cut out the vast majority of that stuff from the get go. It always was its own thing, and got more so as they ran out of source material. Arya's arc is a fairly satisfying one for them to do as the end of the Night King. The actual scene itself made it seem a little out of nowhere, but no issues on the arc itself. I've no idea what the fuck they are going to do with Jon and Danny now, though. 

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Jon is sort of a wight for the lord of light now, beginning of the next episode he may just drop dead as his purpose is served, which was that he needed to be at the battle to create the scenario that occurred 

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Yeah there are all sorts of cool scenario's and WTF moments they could have come up with.  The fact they played it so safe and unimaginative is my main gripe with the episode. 

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43 minutes ago, JLM said:
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The idea that the remaining episodes are a fight against the B squad now that Sauron is defeated is so spectacularly at odds with my view on the show that it's difficult to articulate it. The boss battle with Cersei and the final war for the iron throne has always been the end game for me. The Night King and the White Walkers have been fun for the most part but I was happy for this episode to be the end of them. I can also forgive plot armour if it means all these characters I've invested so much in get to have their dramatic showdowns, forged in the fires of slow-burn character development (which we all complain that the show doesn't deliver so much any more), as opposed to being stabbed by snow zombies. Totally agree that the editing made it look like they were in too much peril for too long, but other than that I loved the episode to bits and it still delivered some quality deaths that were fitting for the characters. I never would have predicted Lyanna Mormont's death would be one of my favourites in the show's history but it definitely was.

:) 

 

Also people keep saying "doing a Snoke" as if it's a bad thing and I've never agreed with that either. I did not give a toss about Snoke's back story. He was the devil on Kylo Ren's shoulder who nurtured his evil/dark side. That was his role and he achieved it.. His death mirroring Darth Vader's redemption scene but this time achieving the exact opposite for Kylo was the "It's like poetry, they rhyme' moment Lucas was looking for but couldn't achieve himself.. I do not care where Snoke went to school, I do not care about the source of his power, none of it is relevant to the Rey/Kylo story. Explaining in detail a bunch of shit that was best left to the imagination is one of the many failings of the Star Wars prequels for me and I'm glad they didn't feel the need to do it with Snoke. He was a one note cackling monster in a cloak, just like Palpatine in ROTJ. I don't believe any of Palpatine's back story added anything significant or worthwhile to the universe at all and I didn't care about any of it. It wasn't important to the plot of the original trilogy AT ALL who Palpatine was or where he came from. If Snoke had been revealed to be Darth Plagueis I would have rolled my eyes so hard that they would still be rolling to this day.  

 

bravo.gif

 

(I'm all out of poss'es today)

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7 hours ago, Zael said:

 

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The whole Meilisandre-Arya prophecy is bullshit and it was retconned after the fact. Her line to Arya was "I see Darkness in you, and in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes. Eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again."  She's not talking about a prophecy to kill the NK she's talking about how Arya will join a cult that kills people and uses their faces to become those people. At that point she's in the middle of abducting Gendry so she can ritually sacrifice him to help the man she actually thinks is going to stop the NK. She then later goes on to resurrect Jon because she got it wrong about Stannis. The only reason she's helping the two of those lads is because she thinks they're the ones that'll end the long night, not Arya.



 

 

And as I said the other day, without Gendry's weapons they were all dead, and Mel tried to kill him after meeting Arya. The defence is that Mel's visions were patchy, so there is an explanation for that. But in the writers' room, we know that Azor pretty much came down to Jon or someone else, and since Jon was way too obvious and disappointing, Arya ended up winning by default as the foremost character for minimising backlash. So yeah, it was a glaring retcon for me.


The idea that Arya had the capability to kill the NK (albeit in just about the clumsiest, least believable way) isn't really the complaint. She was written to serve a purpose later on, yet to be finalised, and in the end that left her in prime contention for solving the riddle of offing the NK without upsetting too many fans; cool. But it was another instance of Jon's reveal as a Targ, because like Arya, he was also prepped for something from the start (Bean was gonna tell him about his mother), and then as it went on without narrative address they railroaded themselves.

None of that's to say that Arya shouldn't have killed the NK, but jumping and shouting like that is something the Waif would've punished her for, never mind the NK. The knife trick, sure, but the NK could've snapped her neck instantly, he just wanted to showboat after such a long journey. He was probably thinking about an Ali shuffle in front of Bran at the time.

 

Perhaps the biggest problem was that we knew Arya was going for the NK as we watched Jon failing to get there, with no-one else in the frame to save Bran.

 

8 hours ago, therearerules said:

You wanted footage of her sneaking past white walkers? Even though that was shown literally in the same episode earlier and would have ruined that ending 

 

Ruined what ending? Jon wasn't getting there and who else could? If not that, it was down to Bran either doing or not doing something in time.

 

5 hours ago, scottcr said:

because we were distracted by being convinced that Jon was somehow going to make it through to Bran.

 

Nah, not Jon. In terms of combat survival he's been the luckiest character; a mid-tier warrior who's made it through some of the hardest battles.

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Because Brienne didn't want to be a kingslayer? But I think he's supposed to be dead, and if he comes back it'll be because they shot themselves in the foot by not showing it, and then had to bend their knees to fans.

 

7 hours ago, The Fox said:

@Liamness The Night King isn't really doing this because he's evil per se, but he was literally created by the Children of the Forest to wipe out humanity when they were threatened them with extinction, and that's about the extent of it. He's not a complex character with personal motivations.

 

All the body patterns and that. There were several allusions to his connection to Westeros beyond explicit ones. That he was simply a basic bad guy's fine, but let's not criticise viewers for being disappointed that he didn't fulfil a narrative promise that was on the table for him.

 

5 hours ago, SM47 said:

Does he really need a ten minute monologue explaining his motivations?

 

No, just a minute or so to warm-up.

 

Question:

 

 

Had the NK killed Bran, would that also have wiped out the WWs? Because that might've been a decent way to go, leading to those icy ruins we've seen. Maybe a bit too Mad Max for the battling survivors, though.

 

4 hours ago, Kevvy Metal said:

I mean, you could just question fucking everything till you're blue in the face

 

And still not have any answers, apparently!

 

4 hours ago, Davros sock drawer said:

Surprised that anyone was surprised about where Arya had gone to, looking all determined. She'd literally just been told to go kill someone with "Blue Eyes".

 

Also her scenes with Jon and Gendry, when Jon asked if she'd used Needle, and Gendry warned her about the undead because she lacked his experience. As soon as Mel mentioned the eyes it was the scriptwriting equivalent of dropping a tray of drinks in a sitcom.

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I do have to say, there were more powerful monsters dying to small girls with daggers than I was expecting in this episode.

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