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The plotting is now beyond risible. The acting and stuff remains risible in a good way, but they are clearly just a) trying to pull together a rambling story that has evidently grown beyond the author's control and b) trying to fit a bit fight into as many episodes as possible because everyone went mental for the Battle of the Bastards (even though that was also beyond risible). It feels like when I used to sit up all night to write essays before tutorials at university and I would start out with a plan but as the tutorial approached I would just have to try to cram everything in at the end before I ran out of time.

 

Some great dialogue this episode though - loved that big ginger guy.

 

EDIT: the above is a spoiler about the leaked episode (7?).

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21 hours ago, Stigweard said:

EP 6 Related

 

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everyone's separated into their own camps now.

 

 

Spoiler

Which is a problem for season eight, because most of them have lived beyond our expectations to reserve them until they interact. Will they cungh-cungh them in S8, or spare quite a few uncharacteristically?

 

For reference, Cersei and Jaime have little left to do in King's Landing, so they're just waiting for the endgame. Ditto the Mountain, who still hasn't had a proper post-zombie fight. Lots of fan-favourites are treading water due to the separation you mention: Tyrion (once the best character, but now just a diegetic narrator of sorts), Bronn, Varys, Davos, Brienne, Hound, Tormund... Hopefully Arya and Sansa are just tricking Littlefinger, leaving Winterfell — the least interesting element — with a short conclusion.

 

I'm a bit worried about what Melisandre said to Varys, though...

 

Spoiler

Because it sets him up for an unwanted heel turn.

 

They seem to have written themselves into a corner where they can't have a rapid cull without upsetting lots of viewers, nor avoid one without upsetting everyone else. Jon Bronn Jaime and Tormund would all be dead now in previous seasons. I never expected Brienne to survive this long when Renly was killed in the middle of S2, for example, but here we are with a bunch of popular characters and a handful of remaining eps.

 

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5 hours ago, kerraig UK said:
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The problem is the shitty writing. The whole plot to go grab a zombie was just a device to get a zombie north of the wall. The fact it then required characters to betray themselves, time to slow time and the rules of the world to change just reinforces what a huge dip in quality we're witnessing.  They're fucking it up!  

 

 

The writing has many issues but also some great moments. The problem is that the way they have written the story it forces them to trek over vast distances in order to move the plot forward. Of course it can feel artificial sometimes, but that is how things are done in these situations (remember LotR). Here is much more evident because you are only watching an episode at a time. If you were watching a 3.30 movie you would be ''ffs do we have to see them travelling there''? It doesn't make for a good TV and, most importantly, there is no budget for it!

 

People complaining about the plan. I haven't seen any other suggestions that would make sense.

Spoiler

People complaining about the wights attacking and being held off, when it is CLEAR that the NK didn't want to end the fight right there, that he was expecting the dragons to appear, that he was laying a trap. When the dragons appeared then the full attack went off and they had to leg it, etc.

People now just seem eager to bring the series down, ffs. There are legitimate problems with the season, but ''rushing it'' is far from the most serious one.

 

The main problems for me come from the fact that they are still trying to built up the characters, when there is no need for it. The Arya-Sansa plotline is completely nonsensical, the Cercei's as well or the Daenerys mad queen vibe, there is simply no budget to properly built up these things, so they feel forced in only for plot reasons.

 

It's crazy for us to assume that we have thought of things the creators haven't and that we can see the wrongs and they can't. But the season or the show is FAR from being ruined.

 

We need to chill a bit. It's a bumpy ride but it's still unrivalled.

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3 hours ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

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when it is CLEAR that the NK didn't want to end the fight right there

 

S7E6:

 

Spoiler

And he speared the flying dragon because, like Daley Thompson, he's a born showboater.

 

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58 minutes ago, Escaped said:

 

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And he speared the flying dragon because, like Daley Thompson, he's a born showboater.

 

 

Spoiler

Maybe he wasn't sure it was going to work on Drogon and didn't want to attract his attention. He went for him immediately after he saw that it worked.

 

Maybe we assume too much without knowing much. ;)

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3 hours ago, Escaped said:

 

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And he speared the flying dragon because, like Daley Thompson, he's a born showboater.

 

 

best explanation I've read has been EP6 SPOILER

 

 

 


The NK killed Viserion mainly because it was the one doing all the damage from the air.  Drogon was the chinook on the ground, but Viserion was an AC-130 raining fire from above... it was the obvious one to take out first.
 

 

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14 minutes ago, scottcr said:

best explanation I've read has been EP6 SPOILER

 

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The NK killed Viserion mainly because it was the one doing all the damage from the air.  Drogon was the chinook on the ground, but Viserion was an AC-130 raining fire from above... it was the obvious one to take out first.
 

 

 

And the King had to wait while his spears were prepped in a coolbox offscreen.

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35 minutes ago, scottcr said:

 

best explanation I've read has been EP6 SPOILER

 

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The NK killed Viserion mainly because it was the one doing all the damage from the air.  Drogon was the chinook on the ground, but Viserion was an AC-130 raining fire from above... it was the obvious one to take out first.
 

 

 

Or maybe it just looked cooler. 

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4 hours ago, Talk Show Host said:

 

The problem is that the way they have written the story it forces them to trek over vast distances in order to move the plot forward.

 

I think the biggest problem with the latest couple of episodes is the anorexically thin premise they came up with for the latest excursion north of the wall. If this was the books I'm sure Martin could have just invented another continent and dribbled out a load more waffle to distract people long enough for him to think of a way to get the right people in the right place for whatever endpoint he has envisioned. 

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24 minutes ago, Tourist said:
 

I think the biggest problem with the latest couple of episodes is the anorexically thin premise they came up with for the latest excursion north of the wall. If this was the books I'm sure Martin could have just invented another continent and dribbled out a load more waffle to distract people long enough for him to think of a way to get the right people in the right place for whatever endpoint he has envisioned. 

 

That is completely theoretical though, isn't it? GRRM's latest books haven't exactly been of the same quality as the first two, for example. He has fallen to the trap of describing boring events for too long, which is understandable when you write something this big and complex. But this is TV, it's not writing. I am 100% sure that if we were shown long treks here and there and boring chit chats people would complain that no one gives a shit about the White Walkers. :P

 

The fact that the last episode has more bumpy moments on some levels doesn't mean much. The 5th one was brilliantly done, with a lot of exposition and nice dialogue. Generalizing is just stupid in my opinion.

 

And if you have a better plan to convince Cercei, I would gladly talk about it. The fact that it wasn't as greatly directed and expanded as we are used to, doesn't mean there are better plans out there at this moment.

 

 

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This comes down to time though. They didn't have the time to set this up naturally, so they've started forcing things quickly.

We could've had a 10-ep season of Dany V Cersei.

Then another 10-ep season to wrap up the Night King.

 

A lot of the complaints could've been solved with just a couple more episodes, but apparently they don't have the creativity to fill this time.

For example, why not spend some time this season with house Mormont?

Why not have Jorah protecting Sam on the road to establish he's fighting fit and repay his debt? Surely there would be repercussions for stealing from the Citadel?

Show us how Cersei is ruling the people, what decisions is she having to make. How is KL reacting to the destruction of the crypt of Baelor? The people loved Margerie. Surely there is some resistance to Cersei's rule? Maybe she appears to act benevolently to a disagreeable request in a small counsel meeting, but in private sends in the Zombie Mountain to crush civilians who oppose her interests.

Tyrion sneaking into King's Landing could've been a long tense sequence.

What is happening with Yara and Euron? What's happening with the new Maester of Winterfell, what's his deal?

At this stage heading back North of the Wall didn't need to happen. The show hasnt explicitly stated any rules for the NK crossing the wall.

It's all just glossed over.

You think? So why didn't they do these things and they had to force some things to go faster?

 

Because they didn't think of that but we did? [emoji14]

 

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  Because they're sacrificing narrative quality, consistency and internal logic because of self-imposed production limitations? 

 

They do not sacrifice half of what you said. I will make a post later countering your suggestions to show you that many of them do not make much sense in my opinion. So it's not as easy as you think it is.

 

What do you mean self imposed? You think they just grow money and just do what they want? Or are you talking based on your vast experience of producing blockbuster tv shows?

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, sir shrew said:

 

This comes down to time though. They didn't have the time to set this up naturally, so they've started forcing things quickly.

We could've had a 10-ep season of Dany V Cersei.

Then another 10-ep season to wrap up the Night King.

 

A lot of the complaints could've been solved with just a couple more episodes, but apparently they don't have the creativity to fill this time.

For example, why not spend some time this season with house Mormont?

Why not have Jorah protecting Sam on the road to establish he's fighting fit and repay his debt? Surely there would be repercussions for stealing from the Citadel?

Show us how Cersei is ruling the people, what decisions is she making. How is KL reacting to the destruction of the crypt of Baelor? The people loved Margerie. Surely there is some resistance to Cersei's rule? Maybe she appears to act benevolently to a disagreeable request (perhaps a memorial to Margerie) in a small counsel meeting, but in private sends in the Zombie Mountain to crush civilians who oppose her interests.

 

Tyrion sneaking into King's Landing could've been a long tense sequence.

What is happening with Yara and Euron? What's happening with the new Maester of Winterfell, what's his deal?

At this stage heading back North of the Wall didn't need to happen. The show hasnt explicitly stated any rules for the NK crossing the wall.

It's all just glossed over.

 

None of this is in it because a.) the writers don't give a shit about the surrounding substance which enriches the show, and b.) couldn't write it for shit anyway. Some of the monologues we've had lately are shocking. Arya's one about shooting arrows was....just..wow :lol: Who the fucking hell came up with all that shite. 

 

King's Landing is dead. The south, in general, is dead. It's awful. Like I said earlier, it feels like Cersei is ruling over a fallout zone of mindless zombies; there's just no life there any more. I couldn't give a fuck about saving the south because they've let us fall out of love with the capital as a whole! They've totally failed to knit together the action in the north with the lives in the south. I literally struggle to believe it's the same continent. I struggle to imagine Jaime in a coat, let alone fighting a wight. They've failed to maintain the grandeur of Westeros and the desire to see a strong leader on the throne to lead the people. I'd rather they all packed up and sailed off. 

 

1 hour ago, Talk Show Host said:

They do not sacrifice half of what you said. I will make a post later countering your suggestions to show you that many of them do not make much sense in my opinion. So it's not as easy as you think it is.

 

What do you mean self imposed? You think they just grow money and just do what they want? Or are you talking based on your vast experience of producing blockbuster tv shows?

 

Ep 6

Spoiler

Example. Undead bear. Wasn't needed. Costs $$$.

 

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I want to see something realistic from Cersei. I want Euron showing up, having collected The Golden Company, and taking Winterfell. Dany may be her enemy, but she has an army of Northmen against her, and a potential husband who is trading his fleet and cock for the Iron Islands to be an independent kingdom again. The Northmen stand in his way and this is a more normal type of warfare Cersei and Jaime are both familiar with.

 

Jaime may feel lost against dragons, but peace still needs to be restored to the rest of the continent regardless of Dany and her dragons. I'd like to see this become their focus.

 

Six episodes at over an hour long next season? I'd be stunned if something similar doesn't happen. I think Euron will die fighting wights up north. I think they'll come further south than Winterfell, mostly because I can't see the Dothraki or Unsullied going too far north. 

 

I suspected may see a few episodes post Long Night battle. This doesn't seem like the Harry Potter: "And they won the battle and lived happily ever after" style of story; a different conclusion needs to come about.

 

I want to see Dany turn heel and follow her father to eventually prompt Jon to feel she shouldn't take the throne. The final battle needs to be between them, not Cersei and Dany. There's fuck all point writing Jon's legitimacy into the show unless he needs it, and I can only see his character turning against Dany for honourable reasons. 

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why is the series ending at this particular time anyway? are they expecting a nuclear war in 2019? Is there some significance to the number 74? Are they worried that Bran's weird face will get even weirder when he enters his 20s?

 

 

Quote

I suspected may see a few episodes post Long Night battle. This doesn't seem like the Harry Potter: "And they won the battle and lived happily ever after" style of story; a different conclusion needs to come about.

 

I definitely think that the Night King will be taken out first and then it'll be time to decide who will rule Westeros, not the other way around.

 

Who is the best Golfer in Game of Thrones?

Spoiler

Seve Balleswesteros

 

 

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18 minutes ago, _Pow_ said:

why is the series ending at this particular time anyway? are they expecting a nuclear war in 2019? Is there some significance to the number 74? Are they worried that Bran's weird face will get even weirder when he enters his 20s?

 

 

 

I saw him on the tube the other day, in person he looks like he's wearing the mask from Scream

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Ok its still great but fucking hell there is some stupid shit going on now.

 

Spoiler

It's well established that up north you have to burn the bodies of the dead or they come back as wights. Why the fuck are they going all the way up there to try and what snatch one zombie out of an army?!  Great fight but one of the low points of the series for me. 

 

I enjoy the party of heroes all come together aspect but honestly , they actually burn one of their own in the middle of all this to stop him turning. Take a prisoner execute him, wait for him to turn. 

 

The convenient red shirts along for the ride to die. The main characters 'nearly' dying and then oh get rid of the drunk guy. The bizarre wait while Gendry runs all the way back to the wall, they send a raven, and Dany flies all the way up there and then the NK deciding to let all his primary enemies go ?! He had at least two of those spears , the whole thing should have been over right then. 

 

Bear in mind to get beyond the forest north of the wall is 300-600 miles! And they were what 2000+ miles from Dragonstone. 2 days travel for a raven at least ? 

 

Painful. But still good overall, probably because of the weight that has been accumulated.

 

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EP 6

 

Just now, Strategos said:

Ok its still great but fucking hell there is some stupid shit going on now.

 

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It's well established that up north you have to burn the bodies of the dead or they come back as wights. Why the fuck are they going all the way up there to try and what snatch one zombie out of an army?!  Great fight but one of the low points of the series for me. 

 

I enjoy the party of heroes all come together aspect but honestly , they actually burn one of their own in the middle of all this to stop him turning. Take a prisoner execute him, wait for him to turn. 

 

 

Spoiler

Maybe I've got this wrong, but they don't just turn, do they? Doesn't it need one of the Walkers to turn them? You can't just wait for a dead person to turn if the Walkers decide not to turn him.

 

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5 minutes ago, JohnC said:

EP 6

 

 

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Maybe I've got this wrong, but they don't just turn, do they? Doesn't it need one of the Walkers to turn them? You can't just wait for a dead person to turn if the Walkers decide not to turn him.

 

 

Spoiler

Probably, we def see the white walkers touching and raising the dead. But in Season 1 two corpses are carried into the castle and reanimate later that night. And they burn corpses on the south of the wall where the wights cant reach.  Still stupid to go up there. 

 

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2 hours ago, NexivRed said:

 

None of this is in it because a.) the writers don't give a shit about the surrounding substance which enriches the show, and b.) couldn't write it for shit anyway. Some of the monologues we've had lately are shocking. Arya's one about shooting arrows was....just..wow :lol: Who the fucking hell came up with all that shite. 

 

King's Landing is dead. The south, in general, is dead. It's awful. Like I said earlier, it feels like Cersei is ruling over a fallout zone of mindless zombies; there's just no life there any more. I couldn't give a fuck about saving the south because they've let us fall out of love with the capital as a whole! They've totally failed to knit together the action in the north with the lives in the south. I literally struggle to believe it's the same continent. I struggle to imagine Jaime in a coat, let alone fighting a wight. They've failed to maintain the grandeur of Westeros and the desire to see a strong leader on the throne to lead the people. I'd rather they all packed up and sailed off. 

 

 

Ep 6

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Example. Undead bear. Wasn't needed. Costs $$$.

 

 

Ah, we have the reached the point now where "the writers do not give a shit about the surrounding substance which enriches the show" and "that they can't write for shit". I won't even bother answering that, it's completely ridiculous. 

 

You struggle to imagine Jaime fighting a wight? I have no problem doing so. Especially for that character, which his great internal struggles can offer us a great redemption story. If you don't see that then it's your loss I guess. 

 

The story of GoT is not only about the need and the corruption of power. it's main idea, as we all see and read, is that our petty differences mean nothing against a superior problem and banding together is the solution. Davos said it correctly: ''If the dead win, then it doesn't matter which skeleton sits on the Iron Throne". If you wanted to have interludes about the price of the local trout in Flea Bottom or another amazing tale of a drunk guy fucking Cercei and getting his head smashed on the wall while he pees, while the most important war of recent memory takes place in the north, then I am glad you are nowhere near this show's creative process. 

 

As for your spoiler, why you think so? It was a great moment for me. It looked glorious. 

 

It is very easy to find plotholes and problems to what @sir shrew posted, but that is not my point. My point is that the budget is limited and choices have to be made. The way the story has branched out has created some issues, that is true, the direction and scene writing has proven problematic here and there, some plots are completely without merit or drama, but to dismiss the entire season or shout about the lack of talent involved with the show is ignorance of the highest order.  

 

On the other hand, if we had a scene like what @sir shrew posted, we would need a couple of episodes at least, maybe three if you want to properly built it up. In that case, your dragons would look like this:

 

Spoiler

how-to-draw-dragons.gif

 

 

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