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22 minutes ago, Thor said:

@Benny, you're treating it as a black and white case, when the reality of the situation is far more in the grey. The parallel you draw there is off, more than somewhat. The situations are barely alike, and if I'm being honest a bit disrespectful.

 

Also, by your logic all TV and Movies are contrived. Of course, in reality they are, they're stories that someone wants to tell, so events will happen to fit the story. For example, Picard's first visit to Risa. Is it contrived that the showrunners suddenly made Picard super grumpy so that they could send him to space butlins? Of course it is. But that's what you get with episodic entertainment of this kind. Just because you find the topic in this particular episode abhorrent, doesn't make it, or the episode's take on it, less interesting. For me it's an excellent episode. 

 

As for the life extending experimental treatment, it's experimental, not guaranteed to work. They could lose both Sim and Trip. 

 

I'm not sure where the disrespectful part is coming from - I'm engaging with the argument presented, not your personal real world views.

 

The parallel is bang on in my opinion:

 

Spoiler

They create an intelligent clone to be enslaved to a purpose, just like how they are in Blade Runner

 

 

As for the experimental treatment part: 

 

Spoiler

As they have brought Sim into the world, it's not their right to choose if he tries the treatment or not - by refusing his right to life they are effectively committing murder. From their perspective they want the best chance of saving someone, but this has come at the expense of the rights of another individual.

 

 

And by contrived plot devices I mean, what we are supposed to engage with as the story as presented. All stories are necessarily contrived, but once the text exists it will then form a narrative that either does or doesn't make sense as written - in this case the story is highly contrived because, as written, it's a story about exploitation of another being, but characters are contrived to make decisions and have dialogue that sidesteps the actual issue that was created by the situation created for the plot demands.

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Essentially, I found the episode extremely frustrating, because it created a highly speculative "what if" scenario, but then never truly engaged fully with the issues this brought about, and focused all the drama away from the moral issue that would be at the core of the idea. That is: was what they did justifiable in the first place.

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11 minutes ago, Benny said:

 

 

I do agree the problem is very much that it's an interesting idea that Enterprise has muddled through and not really addressed properly in a particularly satisfying or morally interesting way.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The central conflict as written becomes whether they can justify the murder of an innocent to save a life, which in of itself is pretty black and white wrong. But actually the conflict should have been whether they morally can create someone to serve someone else's needs in the first place. Which is also pretty black and white bad anyway - it's intentionally birthing someone into servitude. Acher is in general coming across as amoral most of the time, as his motivations are very often inconsistent and seemingly selfish, with no actual moral code for his decisions to seem to wrestle with. Contrast this with Sisko: he has a very well defined moral compass, so some of his actions come across as immoral. But never amoral.

 

It's still miles better than Discovery obviously, as there aren't even any questionable episodes in that show but with actual big ideas to have discussions about.

That's true but Sisko had 200 years of Starfleet history behind him, and an armada of ships to call upon should the shit hit the fan. Archer's crew were out exploring thousands of light years away from any Starfleet support and having to adjust their moral compass on the fly. You see it in Voyager too, although Janeway has well established Starfleet codes to adhere to she has to bend her principles from time to time given the unprecedented isolation the crew find themselves in. Yes the writing didn't always paint Archer in a consistent way but you'll always get that to an extent when you have a huge team of writers for one show. I like the idea of Archer having to be judge and jury in difficult situations where Starfleet's embryonic code of conduct hasn't yet established rules to fit every situation. He makes some apparently bad, sometimes selfish calls and it makes him more flawed and human than future captains. You saw how he almost fucked the first contact situation because he was desperate to save his pet dog, here he's doing it for his best friend.

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I suspect a lot of my frustrations with the show are probably down to just how inconsistently Archer is written at this point. He comes across as more of a liability than Janeway. That fucking sick dog episode, christ :lol:

 

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1 hour ago, Benny said:

It has an uncomfortable parallel with real human slavery... 

That's the parallel I find a bit disrespectful. The situations aren't the same. 

 

For what it's worth I'm enjoying reading your arguments about this. We just appear to disagree. :)

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2 minutes ago, Benny said:

I suspect a lot of my frustrations with the show are probably down to just how inconsistently Archer is written at this point. He comes across as more of a liability than Janeway. That fucking sick dog episode, christ :lol:

 

Yeah if there was an episode to get up in arms about it was that one, not Sim.

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Take me out to the Holosuite :wub: 

 

And why not. 

 

Heyyy batter batter batter

Heyyy batter

 

DEATH TO THE OPPPOSITION.

 

 

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Ha, Benny you are going to hate the S4 episode, Daedelus. Archer in particular will fuck you right off, to be honest he fucked me right off... 

 

Spoiler

I was disappointed Trip acquiesced in the end, Archer was a colossal prick and Trip was dead right. 

 

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Observer Effect was much better. Shades of the Q Continuum there. 

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3 hours ago, Thor said:

That's the parallel I find a bit disrespectful. The situations aren't the same. 

 

I think a group owning a human being and them being exploited for their resource is pretty much the definition of slavery. They created him purely to use him, and that's condoning using someone as a slave for a purpose against their will whichever way you look at it.

 

It doesn't matter what the end result or what they are trying to achieve is: they have taken agency and life away from another human being no matter what their intentions are. They are literally condoning the ends justifying the means no matter what kind of suffering is caused in the process.

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But to liken the situation in that episode to the real plight of millions of slaves in our history ... to me, it seems disrespectful to make that comparison. 

 

And Sim wasn't really human, he was a lifeform with a lifespan of 14 days. I'll agree the showrunners could have handled it differently, but I still feel its a good episode, and your reaction to it overly strong. 

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Heh, perhaps this is Benny rubbing off on me, but I just spotted something in the episode "United", and I wonder if Benny will pick up on it, that's if you make it that far. :P

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I never thought Linda Park was even vaguely attractive. Then i watched series 3 episode Exile. 

 

Blimey! She is insanely pretty 

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3 hours ago, Thor said:

But to liken the situation in that episode to the real plight of millions of slaves in our history ... to me, it seems disrespectful to make that comparison. 

 

And Sim wasn't really human, he was a lifeform with a lifespan of 14 days. I'll agree the showrunners could have handled it differently, but I still feel its a good episode, and your reaction to it overly strong. 

 

I think you're misunderstanding me: I'm not comparing it to the plight of real people suffering real injustice - I'm comparing the characters in the show treating a person as a slave to their own needs as being as abhorrent as someone doing the same thing in reality.

 

And saying he isn't really human is exactly the argument people used to justify treating people different than them as lesser and not worthy of the same rights in real life.

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I'm not misunderstanding you, I just disagree on the fundamentals of the situation. The fact remains you drew a parallel between the episode and human slavery, which I find a bit disrespectful to those who actually went through human slavery. 

 

We should just drop this, we're not going to arrive at some kind of accord on this. :)

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I'm not sure who exactly is going to find it disrespectful if I'm pointing out a sci fi show has a shakey moral argument that could be seen to be condoning slavery. Otherwise when exactly are we supposed to discuss media that clearly has problematic writing on the subject?

 

I'm up to the religious fundamentalist aliens blowing themselves up episode now though and hoo boy...

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But we've veered from discussing the media and have instead gone round in circles. And it's considered disrespectful to speak ill of the dead, is it not? You didn't do that, but your parallel, to my eyes, made light of real slavery because the realities of the situations are markedly different.

 

I dunno, maybe my reaction to your parallel is as much an overreaction as yours is to the episode.

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6 hours ago, sprite said:

Take me out to the Holosuite :wub: 

 

And why not. 

 

Heyyy batter batter batter

Heyyy batter

 

DEATH TO THE OPPPOSITION.

 

 

That episode is bonkers but also has another great worf bit where they're trying to work out the whole "tagging the opposition because they didn't properly touch the base" and worf's option is "find him and kill him" :D

Would be a rule that would make baseball a lot more interesting. 

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Well now, Lt Reed, this is a surprise. 

 

S4 has been excellent, I'm gutted this is the last of it. :(

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Might as well call this episode sexploitation. :lol:

 

Edit: You know what? I absolutely detest the mirror universe, but I know  Enterprise's MU two-parter is next, and I can't fucking wait. I can't explain it. :lol:

 

Edit2: Back to my original point, this epsiode is hilariously stupid, and predictable. :lol:

 

 

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Andorians have really grown on me. Loved the episode with them

 

Spoiler

Stealing the prototype. Quality character moments from Shran

 

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Maybe he’s born with it, maybe it’s genetic engineering.

 

Their kid must be twenty odd now. Weird.

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Ah, so it's for these episodes that the daft crop-top uniforms are for. :lol: When I accidentally saw the pic way back I honestly thought they'd gone that direction for S3 and beyond. :lol:

 

 

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What the fuck did I just watch. :lol:

 

Still, that was better than all the other mirror universe episodes from the rest of Trek. 

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I'm gonna leave it there, that seems a better, more fitting place to end it. 

 

I'm fucking distraught that it's over. And absolutely gutted that the Trek TV we've had since has been absolute dogshit on comparison, yes including Picard (though I'm still hopeful it'll get better). The three movies we got were great, at least, would love a fourth. I guess we still have The Orville, at least some people are still making shows like this. 

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27 minutes ago, Thor said:

I'm gonna leave it there, that seems a better, more fitting place to end it. 

 

I'm fucking distraught that it's over. And absolutely gutted that the Trek TV we've had since has been absolute dogshit on comparison, yes including Picard (though I'm still hopeful it'll get better). The three movies we got were great, at least, would love a fourth. I guess we still have The Orville, at least some people are still making shows like this. 

It's not over, you've one ep to go!

 

Did you really think the movies were great? I've rewatched the first reboot and into darkness recently. The first I thought was absolute shite. That red matter was complete nonsense. Plus it gave Picard the starting point for a terrible show with the destruction of Romulus.

 

Into Darkness I thought was much better than I remembered, mind. Much more of a Trekky  Trek film. Although I still hate Simon Pegg as Scotty.

 

Have got Beyond on DVD, will have to dust that off for another go. Barely remember it.

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51 minutes ago, Thor said:

I'm gonna leave it there, that seems a better, more fitting place to end it. 

 

I'm fucking distraught that it's over. And absolutely gutted that the Trek TV we've had since has been absolute dogshit on comparison, yes including Picard (though I'm still hopeful it'll get better). The three movies we got were great, at least, would love a fourth. I guess we still have The Orville, at least some people are still making shows like this. 


You need to watch the last one just so we can read your thoughts!

 

Please? I’m having a rough view days :(

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