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The terrifying, never-ending (old) Star Trek thread - new movies and Discovery talk in the other, dedicated threads

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1 hour ago, iknowgungfu said:

Thanks for this. Just the sort of thing I was after. 

 

I'd also check out The Good Shepherd from Season Six, which is basically Voyager's version of "Lower Decks" from TNG.  But worse, obviously, coz, Lower Decks...

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19 hours ago, DeciderVT said:

Just watched Insurrection, which I haven't seen since release. At the time I thought it was a humdrum follow-up to First Contact but I found myself enjoying it a lot as an extended TNG episode, instead of burdening it with the expectations of a feature film. Pleasantly surprised, overall.

 

This completely wraps up how I feel about Insurrection.  I saw it at the cinema and I just really, really enjoyed it.  I still adore it, but absolutely treat it in the context of it being an extended TNG episode rather than a movie.  It worked really well following First Contact, and really shows up Nemesis as being.... god, I don't even know.  I don't even feel like Nemesis represents actual Star Trek.  It's such a mess, so much so that it caused Tom Hardy to completely descend into addiction, so that's another reason to hate it.

 

 

Insurrection :) 

 

 

 

 

"Mr Worf, why are you here?"

"Well," .................. because it wouldn't be a TNG film if I weren't here, so does anyone really care?

"Nevermind, you're staying"

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Things I loved most about Insurrection: the new dress uniforms, and the turbolift moving graphic displays.

 

The Making of Insurrection was the first book I ever bought off Amazon. The original intent for the baddies was for them to be Romulan.

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I’ve just realised I’ve never actually watched any of the Star Trek Next Gen movies. Not sure how that happened.

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They're all worth a watch at least once, even Nemesis for the few snippets of good (for TNG fans) in amongst the shit 

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It's really odd watching TNG and ds9 again and how they've got some clear "friends of the show" Tim russ has about 4 different parts before he finally managed to convince them to keep him as tuvok. He even appeared as a Vulcan in tng! You'd think there was only about 20 actors in Hollywood. 

 

And back on the topic of the movies there's James Cromwell who clearly couldn't be bothered with wearing face prosthetics after so many other roles so they let him be himself as zefram Cochran.

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Yeah with 700 episodes of Trek you are bound to see familiar faces pop up. Jeffery Combes was in DS9, Voyager and Enterprise for example.

 

Russ also auditioned for Geordi.

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1 hour ago, Gordzilla said:

Yeah with 700 episodes of Trek you are bound to see familiar faces pop up. Jeffery Combes was in DS9, Voyager and Enterprise for example.

 

Russ also auditioned for Geordi.

Think I also saw him in a soft porn/erotic thriller not long after I saw him in voyager (although the porn flick was older).

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16 minutes ago, iknowgungfu said:

Think I also saw him in a soft porn/erotic thriller not long after I saw him in voyager (although the porn flick was older).

 

Night Eyes 2 with Shannon Tweed.

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Season 3 of Enterprise shits all over Voyager (sorry Thor). DS9 shits all over everything else from a great height, fantastic stuff and unlikely to ever be beaten. 

 

Nothing can be quite as bad as Discovery though. Would still rather watch Tom Paris evolve into a fish or Chakotay and Seven get romantically involved than all that Spore Drive bollocks.

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God, Nemesis today. More creepy telepathic rape for Troi, who had been through an awful experience of this on TNG and now at the hands of the Deep On... er, Remans. And Picard's first instinct, when confronted with a clearly traumatised Troi, is to deny her request to remove herself from the mission and ask her to ensure more of the assaults? What were they thinking?

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4 hours ago, Gordzilla said:

Yeah with 700 episodes of Trek you are bound to see familiar faces pop up. Jeffery Combes was in DS9, Voyager and Enterprise for example.

 

Russ also auditioned for Geordi.

Well I mean it's a bit odd that they do that considering the huge amount of actors you'd think would give a left bollock for any role at all. Although I totally understand minimizing the faff of auditioning people again and again for 'rogue ensign on the left' every week back in the day. 

 

I get it, it's just quite amusing to me. 

 

In another topic entirely, I'm really disappointed that Michael Dorn never got a role as a Frank Drebbin type, he's an absolutely fantastic straight man and has had me cracking up loads on this watch through of everything with his delivery and amazing poker face. Probably the funniest actor in the lot of them. 

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12 hours ago, Jg15 said:

Season 3 of Enterprise shits all over Voyager (sorry Thor). DS9 shits all over everything else from a great height, fantastic stuff and unlikely to ever be beaten. 

 

Nothing can be quite as bad as Discovery though. Would still rather watch Tom Paris evolve into a fish or Chakotay and Seven get romantically involved than all that Spore Drive bollocks.

 

It says something when I've watched all the utter tripe those series have produced, sat through Nemesis with a grin and bear it type look.. all that bad trek and yet I still couldn't get through Season 2 of Discovery :lol:

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22 minutes ago, Lorfarius said:

 

It says something when I've watched all the utter tripe those series have produced, sat through Nemesis with a grin and bear it type look.. all that bad trek and yet I still couldn't get through Season 2 of Discovery :lol:

Snap! I gave up and never looked back. S2 had the best episode of Discovery, but it was the one that Frakes directed. After that it all went to shit. 

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21 hours ago, Jg15 said:

Season 3 of Enterprise shits all over Voyager (sorry Thor). DS9 shits all over everything else from a great height, fantastic stuff and unlikely to ever be beaten. 
 

The absolute truth. 

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I know for a fact that this thread has talked about this before, but the search function suggests it's been a while. So:

 

If you want an awesome amount of detail about the writing of Star Trek Insurrection, its writer Michael Piller wrote a very good book about it -- "Fade In: The Writing of Star Trek Insurrection". It wasn't published in his lifetime because it was a little too revealing and truthful. Not that he was trying to be scandalous or burn bridges, it's just that it was meant to be a textbook for budding screenwriters and it needed to be honest about the pressures of the studio and the demands of the leading actors. It was "leaked" for free online as a PDF, but I believe in recent years the PDF has been withdrawn because it's sold properly now. So I won't link anything... but it's not hard to find.

 

It's been a few years since I read it, but I recall that it goes through all the early concepts and pitches and drafts. There's an emphasis on having to pitch things that Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner will approve of, so that they'll sign their contracts.

 

The book also has lots of general Star Trek detail, including a very good description of Piller's experience working within "Roddenberry's Box" -- the concept that humanity has solved all of its problems and people no longer have interpersonal conflicts -- so what the hell do you make episodes about?

 

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1 hour ago, SqueakyG said:

 

The book also has lots of general Star Trek detail, including a very good description of Piller's experience working within "Roddenberry's Box" -- the concept that humanity has solved all of its problems and people no longer have interpersonal conflicts -- so what the hell do you make episodes about?

 

 

This is exactly what TNG was, a group of people that had no issues with each other whatsoever. Think of an instance where any of the crew had any arguments with each other (not counting where an alien influence is involved).

 

Roddenberry would have hated DS9 with a passion.

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I think a lot of the interpersonal  complications in ds9 is what makes a lot of the characters more realistic, as well as more entertaining. Odo and Quark are brilliant with their little grouchy comments but they love each other really, the one with them climbing up the mountain is quality and wouldn't really have been possible with the tng crew.

Same with Bashir and O'Brien too, animosity to begin with but they then get along. There's hints of that with some of the tng crew but even the tiny bit of grief Picard gives will when they meet at far point is pretty much immediately resolved. 

 

Then again, it is also good that they do all get along in tng as well but I think in the most part the characters are more believable in ds9 and they end up being as friendly eventually. It's a fine balance but I think it's even more wrong in the more modern versions compared to roddenberry's ideal than anything in ds9.

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For me DS9 gave the Federation a sense of place in its own world. All the other series have been entirely federation centric (not watched Enterprise so I may be missing something there) and DS9 really opened it up to show that space truly was massive and not just the United Nations in space. 

 

It made me realise and understand how certain species/groups could resent the federation and see them as an arrogant and smug set of pricks passively aggressively enforcing their ideology on whoever they cross paths with. Basically, it made me think a bit more about whether the Federation are definitely a force for good.  Whereas TNG etc. don't really show that side of things - they are always the good guys really. That's not a criticism of any particular show either just different approaches.

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Enterprise is basically that from the outside looking in. It's largely pre-federation, with humanity thinking the Vulcans are an arrogant and smug set of pricks.

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DS9 puts perfect "Roddenberian" Starfleet officers into a melting-pot environment where they have to live among other cultures -- other cultures that still have money and commerce, vice and corruption, religion, spycraft, warfare. It makes my brain hurt to think about how the Federation personnel live amongst these things, or what the non-Federation citizens make of them.

 

I think Starfleet must give the officers a stipend of latinum to spend in the shops and casinos of DS9. But how do you even comprehend that when you grew up in a culture that didn't need money? "Haha, let me gamble with these shiny objects that Starfleet gave me! Isn't gambling fun! Oooh, I wonder if I'll lose the shiny trinkets or win some more? Tee hee." Meanwhile other aliens are selling their organs and getting murdered because of their gambling debts.

 

You realise that Federation people do have to live in a galaxy with money and commerce, vice and corruption, religion, spycraft and warfare. There's a cheeky bottle of Romulan Ale in every Starfleet officer's desk, and it had to get there somehow.

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5 hours ago, SqueakyG said:

The book also has lots of general Star Trek detail, including a very good description of Piller's experience working within "Roddenberry's Box" -- the concept that humanity has solved all of its problems and people no longer have interpersonal conflicts -- so what the hell do you make episodes about?

 

I think the box is what makes Star Trek different and unique. Ignoring it completely breaks what Star Trek is.

 

The limitations can make the writer come across new approaches when 99% of the time they'd just resort to good old fashioned drama between characters

 

But finding workarounds is what can make Star Trek great. It's why DS9 is the best one. It's notthe exception to the rule, it's the best example of it. The whole concept is to have their cake and eat it by having characters who dont have to be model citizens in a perfect society  

 

When you completely ignore the rules you're just making some average sci-fi show.

 

(Sorry, think others have said much the same while I've been writing this)

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16 hours ago, SqueakyG said:

I know for a fact that this thread has talked about this before, but the search function suggests it's been a while. So:

 

If you want an awesome amount of detail about the writing of Star Trek Insurrection, its writer Michael Piller wrote a very good book about it -- "Fade In: The Writing of Star Trek Insurrection". It wasn't published in his lifetime because it was a little too revealing and truthful.

 

My recollection is that Paramount blocked it outright from getting published, precisely for the reasons you describe!

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Does anybody want the DS9 What We Leave Behind documentary for £10 on Bluray/DVD? I've watched it several times and I only backed it to show support so happy to let it go at a cheap price to someone else.

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20 minutes ago, Lorfarius said:

Does anybody want the DS9 What We Leave Behind documentary for £10 on Bluray/DVD? I've watched it several times and I only backed it to show support so happy to let it go at a cheap price to someone else.

 

 

I'll take it off your hands. PMd. 

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12 hours ago, makkuwata said:

Enterprise is basically that from the outside looking in. It's largely pre-federation, with humanity thinking the Vulcans are an arrogant and smug set of pricks.

Which they are, especially in Enterprise. The human race is effectively their pet project who they see as little more than a group of savages not ready for the wider galaxy. They actively try and stop humanity from launching the Enterprise and incorporate one of their own, T'Pol, to "help" or force Archer decide on appropriate actions when faced with new species etc (really she is there to report back on what the humans are doing).

 

Of course, the Vulcans are right in some ways. Archer makes some bad decisions along the way, often going against T'Pol's suggestions purposefully and eventually the Vulcans give up on trying to "steer" humanity altogether, even leaving them to sort out the whole Xindi incident on their own in Season 3.

 

By the end of the series both sides come to a mutual understanding, with the Vulcans respecting the humans, who also broker peace with the Andorians, and the Federation is born. 

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Enterprise ain't Star Trek. It's all a Riker holodeck fantasy, thankfully. Quark probably wrote it judging from all the gel rub down scenes.

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Only the finale. I don't think Enterprise deserves its bad reputation anyway, as even the first two seasons have their moments. I'd rather watch those than Discovery any day.

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3 minutes ago, Mogster said:

Only the finale. 

 

Maybe. Maybe not. The chef character is mentioned a lot beforehand. It could all be a dream holodeck

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