Discussing vintage Shinobi games

[fat flatulent git]

Call me a philistine, but I was never able to get into the Megadrive ones. Lots of people tell me that Shadow Dancer was excellent, but try as I might, I just can't enjoy it.

Absolutely loved the first one, or at least, I presume it's the first. The Master System / PC Engine / Famicom one, although the Famicon version was rubbish. Still holds up excellently today, and the bonus game was awesome.

I quite enjoyed the first gamegear game, although it didn't feel like Shinobi. It was fun using the different weapons.

Which Shinobi games have you enjoyed?

[Nick_L]

I loved the GameGear version, was excellent, pretty tough too I seem to remember

Oh, and Alex Kidd in Shinobi World

[Swainy]

I enjoyed the arcade versions of the original Shinobi and Shadow Dancer but like the original poster I couldn't get into the Megadrive games. They had a different feel to them entirely I thought.

I did enjoy the subtle differences of the original Mastersystem Shinobi though. I thought that the health bar was a good idea.

[Dimahoo]

I enjoyed the first arcade game and Revenge (although it did feel different).

It was the first of many pretty decent arcade platforms to be honest but i could never get on with the last MD one (which IIRC many consider the greatest). I'd moved to a SNES quite early so never played the MD version in its day, only relying on Emulation.

I said this the other day but Many MD platformers had a very similar feel. You had Shinobi, Eswat then Moonwalker and Dick Tracy which all had pretty similar gameplay really.

I can't exactly pinpoint why but they all have a certain charm and the music of the MD version was amazing. I think there was a piece called Terrible beat which i loved.

[Soulstar]

Try out a snes game called Hagane and see what you think of that.

[fat flatulent git]

I loved the GameGear version, was excellent, pretty tough too I seem to remember

Think I remember getting all the characters but not finishing the final stage. The purple ninja was cool - he threw bombs. The red, and original ninja, was rubbish. There was one - yellow, blue or green, who could swing from ledges, which was fun.

Did you ever play the second GameGear game?

[Keyboard Koala]

MD Revenge of Shinobi was the bees' knees, imo. Absolutely cracking action platformer from that era.

MD Shadow Dancer wasn't a patch on the brilliant arcade original though.

[Keyboard Koala]

Try out a snes game called Hagane and see what you think of that.

Yikes! That looks ace!

...after all these years, I still regret having bought a MegaDrive instead of a SNES back in 1992

[mushashi]

The Super Shinobi is the only one I've ever adored, the original coin-op and its pseudo-sequel were good, can't say much about the other home 2D versions, passable.

Didn't get on with the polygon versions, but ok I suppose.

The only major one I have never played is the FMV-sprite based Saturn game, but it didn't review particularly well at the time.

[Unofficial Who]

OK this is odd but I've always like the C64 version over the arcade game.

I know. Wrong. In. The. Head.

[Treble]

The Super Shinobi is the only one I've ever adored, the original coin-op and its pseudo-sequel were good, can't say much about the other home 2D versions, passable.

Didn't get on with the polygon versions, but ok I suppose.

The only major one I have never played is the FMV-sprite based Saturn game, but it didn't review particularly well at the time.

As a lot of people have said, there's a big gulf between how Revenge/Super plays and how the original plays. I prefer the original game, then it's a toss up between Shinobi III and GG Shinobi.

The original works so well because it doesn't act like a 16-bit era platformer, with multiple levels you bounce around - there's a real tactical split between jumping on the first 'plane' and using the super jump to land on the second one. The arcade game's good but the Master System, astonishingly, is what I consider to be the best version of Shinobi! It's because of the health bar, and due to the fact that the smaller sprites give you a wider field of vision and more time to react.

The third game adds some great stuff like the dash and some horseback/jetski (!) riding and is totally bananas. I haven't played GG for years - little bit scared to now, in case it's shit

I thought Shadow Dancer was ok but not essential, and the Saturn and 3D PS2 games complete stinkers. So I'd rate them:

Shinobi (MS) > Shinobi (Arc) > Shinobi III > GG Shinobi > The Super Shinobi/Revenge of Shinobi (MD) > Shadow Dancer (Arc)

[strider]

I love Shinobi. Here's my video about the game.

Feel free to forward past the Retro Gamer gumph first

[Asura]

The third game adds some great stuff like the dash and some horseback/jetski (!) riding and is totally bananas.

This is the only one I've really got a great deal of experience of. I used to love it as a kid, but I played it a little while back on the Sega Megadrive Collection for the PSP, and was unpleasantly surprised by how it has aged. The sprite artwork is still really nice, and it was quite fun to play, but I seem to recall it's another 2D platformer from the era when designers thought you should have enemies that attacked diagonally, but players who could only attack vertically and horizontally. Couple this with pixel-perfect platforming where you couldn't always move back and forth to get out of the way of said diagonally moving enemies and you have a bit of a mess.

It's a shame, too, because the horse/rocket-powered-surfboard bits were awesome.

[Treble]

This is the only one I've really got a great deal of experience of. I used to love it as a kid, but I played it a little while back on the Sega Megadrive Collection for the PSP, and was unpleasantly surprised by how it has aged. The sprite artwork is still really nice, and it was quite fun to play, but I seem to recall it's another 2D platformer from the era when designers thought you should have enemies that attacked diagonally, but players who could only attack vertically and horizontally. Couple this with pixel-perfect platforming where you couldn't always move back and forth to get out of the way of said diagonally moving enemies and you have a bit of a mess.

It's a shame, too, because the horse/rocket-powered-surfboard bits were awesome.

Ah, that's the problem with them auld rose-tinted specs, isn't it?

I also remember you can't do a double-jump until at the exact apex of your first jump (same as Revenge, I think) which is crap design. The timing's as tight as Samus's wall-jump but that's an optional perk in most Metroid games; in Shinobi III it's essential for most of the game.

Right, that's it: I'm replaying ALL the games I mentioned and reporting back on how they hold up

[fat flatulent git]

I downloaded the original on the Wii. It is still great fun.

[Soulstar]

The timing's as tight as Samus's wall-jump but that's an optional perk in most Metroid games; in Shinobi III it's essential for most of the game.

Right, that's it: I'm replaying ALL the games I mentioned and reporting back on how they hold up

Right, that's it: I'm replying Super Metroid this Christmas and doing a playthrough thread on here.

[fat flatulent git]

I love Shinobi. Here's my video about the game.

Feel free to forward past the Retro Gamer gumph first

Did I hear you say you could finish the arcade game on 20p?

I could never get past the fourth level.

[C Nut!]

Really like the arcade original. Unfortunately the look and feel of it was lost somewhat in all the sequels.

[Treble]

Right, that's it: I'm replying Super Metroid this Christmas and doing a playthrough thread on here.

Good lad. If the wall jump's essential in some games, please correct my ignorance. I've only played Fusion and Zero Mission of the 2D games, and can't remember using it much in those.

Did I hear you say you could finish the arcade game on 20p?

I could never get past the fourth level.

On the MS version, I could do it without losing a life! This was when I was 12 or 13, and played it non-stop for about 6 months. The key was getting the Manrikugari (sp?) chain (overpowered; totally better than the gun even) and knowing the location of every single enemy in the game. I could also 100% all bonus sections. God knows what I'd be like at it now!

Really like the arcade original. Unfortunately the look and feel of it was lost somewhat in all the sequels.

Absolutely. How could you forget the Marilyn Monroe pop art, for a start?! Shame the sequels looked more generic - the original had a East-meets-West cultural clash thang bubbling under

[Anne Summers]

I loved the Megadrive exclusive ones - Revenge of Shinobi and Shinobi 3 I think ? Really well balanced gameplay and incredibly addictive - made me appreciate the difference between arcade games and console games , back in the day, because they are both obviously designed to be replayable, and require strategic thinking to beat the bosses rather than just pumping more credits in.

[Josh128]

Revenge on the Megadrive is an absolute classic, best music of all the Shinobis. That said, Shinobi 3 is definitely the most bad-ass...

[PikaStu]

My favourite was always MD Shadow Dancer, it was one of the first MD games I ever played and loved it. Still do actually. Never really got on with Revenge or III.

[Treble]

In the spirit of the exercise, I've been replaying some of the principle Shinobi games, so here follows Treb's Definitive Guide to the Best Shinobi Games Evah*

* In no way definitive

The first one I played was MS Shinobi, but in the interest of balance I'm gonna talk about the arcade version first:

Shinobi (Arcade, 1987)

Playthrough: Thanks to the wonder of MAME (and save states) I got to finally complete the arcade original. It's intentionally a coin-gobbler, although it's generally fair (if ultra-hard due to a one-hit-kill system) apart from some sections. The main problem with difficulty comes from the respawns: some of the tougher enemies respawn right next to you, so if you backtrack a few paces then occasionally a ninja baddy (particularly those nasty acid-green buggers) will pop up and slash you to death from out of nowhere.

The levels are excellent: varied, bright and colourful, making good use of the 'super-jump' dynamic that allows you to fight on two planes, and use a limited set of tactics to beat some entrenched enemies. The mix of projectile-firing enemies and melee-based opponents is very good, meaning you have to switch-up tactics and 'manage' the screen quite intelligently (that's me stuffed then).

Although the first boss - Ken-Oh - is a huge difficulty spike that just screams 'stuck in there to rape you of cash', the game levels off after that with a far more reasonable curve. Knowledge of enemy placement is vital, however, and keeps you coming back so you can nail their patterns (especially in the last few sections that lead to the Ninja Master, which are pretty random). You can offset this a bit by launching an endless stream of shurikens in the direction you are walking (in fact, learning how to use jump to cancel the frames between shuriken throws is one of the best bits of the experience. No doubt they introduced limited shirkens in the MD games to cancel-out throwing-star-spamming) but it still has a really high level of difficulty.

One thing I have to mention is that the power-ups are really imited: you either have the Shurikens or the gun and - for melee - either fists/feet or the sword. THis is trumped comprehensively in the MS version (see below). So Shinobi has its flaws - one-hit kills, respawning enemies, insta-deaths you can't avoid - but is a great platform/action game with a unique design (ninja magic is brilliant and was copied to death) that hasn't aged badly at all

Rose-tinted memory: A fantastic game, unique and challenging with strange enemies and excellent level design - 9/10

Replay: A very good, bright and unusually tight game with some occasional nasty touches but overall a lot of fun - 7/10

---------------------------------------------------

Shinobi (Sega Master System, 1988)

Playthrough: One of my abiding memories of SMS Shinobi was that it was slower than the arcade. Of course, playing on emu made me realise that this is down to the daft PAL setup slowing everything to a crawl. Replaying it in sparkly upscaled mode with Vsync on makes the game shine brighter than ever before, and highlights just what a good game it is.

I won't ramble for two long, but the main reasons it's so good are these:

• It has a great weapon upgrade system, both for projectile and melee. So you go Shuriken -> Knife -> Bomb -> Gun in projectile and fists/feet/ -> Sword -> Nunchaku -> Chain in melee. Each one is a significant improvement on the last, and although each is more powerful than the last, you can even use them tactically (e.g. the grenades can either explode on contact or rolled (if crouching) and are great for Black Turtle as they have more damage frames than the gun's ammo).
  
• Weapons are carried into the next level. In each level of the arcade game, you lose your power-ups.
  
• The sprites are smaller, meaning you have a wider field of vision. This means fewer enemies spawn on top of you, because they appear when you 'push' the frame further away from your avatar.
  
• Health-bar!!! No more insta-death (apart from the odd bit and pit-drops)

Incredibly, this means the game is actually better than the arcade parent. I know, amazing isn't it? The only problem is that (apart from the afore-mentioned choke points) it's a bit too easy. But the better-than-you'd-expect graphics (surprisingly faithful to the arcade game), smoother difficulty level and the fact it actually adds lots of improvements to the gameplay make this one the winner.

Rose-tinted memory: Better than the original as, other than the visuals, it improves on its arcade forefather in almost every way - 9/10

Replay: Amazingly... exactly the same impressions, 23 years on! - 9/10

(Shinobi 3, GG Shinobi, Revenge and Shadow Dancer to follow...)

[Mr Monday]

Playing Revenge of Shinobi in 1989 blew my mind. Definitely one of my all time favourites.

[Anonymous X]

Gave Revenge a retrospective play through earlier in the year. Stalled at the waterfall level as I had misremembered the need to summon the jump boosting ninjitsu magic.

I agree with Dimahoo that a lot of MD platformers, particularly the ones from Sega's stable, felt very very similar.

[Swainy]

A few weeks ago I had a phone call from an old mate of mine who had found a tape with my name on it up in his parents loft. It was just some old graphic files and one of them was this:

A mock up of what I thought Shinobi might look like on the Speccy before the game was ever announced for the Speccy. Basically it was my mates favourite arcade game and he kept pestering me to draw it. This was done back in early 1988 when I was just 13

[fat flatulent git]

You programmed the computer to draw that, Swainy? If so, that's excellent work.

Looking forward to your comments on the rest of the games, Treble, although I have to politely disagree that the Master System version was better than the Arcade. Coin-sucking trick though it may be, I do like the added tension of the one-hit-and-you-die arcade version, especially now that I don't have to feed coins in.

It must surely be one the arcade games of its time that has aged the most gracefully. I always hold up Galaga as the oldest game which is still fun to play. In fact, that's given me an idea for a new thread.

[Swainy]

No I had an art package on the Speccy and a mouse so it was just done in the normal way of pixel pushing

[Treble]

You programmed the computer to draw that, Swainy? If so, that's excellent work.

Looking forward to your comments on the rest of the games, Treble, although I have to politely disagree that the Master System version was better than the Arcade. Coin-sucking trick though it may be, I do like the added tension of the one-hit-and-you-die arcade version, especially now that I don't have to feed coins in.

It must surely be one the arcade games of its time that has aged the most gracefully. I always hold up Galaga as the oldest game which is still fun to play. In fact, that's given me an idea for a new thread.

Galaga is beautifully designed, yep, and holds up really well. Look forward to your thread.

I totally get what you mean about the arcade version, and it is really excellent. I don't have an issue with the one-hit-kills per se, it's just when combined with the respawns that mean backtracking even a few pixels is a fraught and tense affair that leads to tons of unfair deaths - it's particularly bad on the Mandara level, I find, when the green ninjas arrive.

It's a great game though - I loved playing it through for the first time. The last time I tried, I had an old MAME build that wouldn't allow save states on the final level (which, you might remember, doesn't allow continues) so it was a bit of a bugger.

[fat flatulent git]

I don't remember that the last level doesn't allow continues, as I was never good enough to get there.

The furthest I have got is the first stage of what, on the arcade game I downloaded on the Wii VC, is the fourth level. So the stage after beating the boss who consists of a giant face going up and down a wall. Before you face him, you have to destroy about twenty inca-like statues which are pushing you towards an electrocution line.

Hope that rubbish explanation makes it clear. I don't think I'll ever get further, despite the saved game state with a bout fifty credits in it. After a few metres I always panic when about six ninjas materialise out of nowhere on either side of me, and there goes my magic, so nothing to save me the second time it happens.

The NES version of Shinobi, sadly, is rubbish. It looks rubbish and feels slow. Ken Oh is very hard to kill, and you can't see his health bar. Worse, in his blue overalls, he looks like a mechanic. Either my rom or the game has a bug - when I tried to use magic it didn't kill anyone, but the screen and enemies (and Joe himself) all froze, but I was able to fly over all the enemies and complete the stage, as none of them moved.